4 ms·

Trade groups suggesting personal behavior changes to address systemic issues with the thing they sell are such a standard playbook that I am surprised it still

Trade groups suggesting personal behavior changes to address systemic issues with the thing they sell are such a standard playbook that I am surprised it still works.

mhb 4y ago
So you're saying she's wrong?
- formerly_proven 4y ago
  That's the point, it isn't. Just like reducing your carbon footprint is good for climate change. Is that an effective way of dealing with climate change? No.
- FiloSottile 4y ago
  Yes. I am saying the whole concept of public health and safety (as well as information security) is based on the observation that you can't just "tell people to change a behavior". It's like saying that electrical rules in building codes are overreach, because people can just avoid touching exposed wires.
  - mhb 4y ago
    OK. So the clause trade groups suggesting is just ad hominem noise. Maybe your point is that making cooking appliances more expensive to improve them in one dimension is worthwhile since it is greater than a person's benefits in some other life dimension.
    - FiloSottile 4y ago
      That's not what "ad hominem" means, and you don't seem interested in discussing any systemic dynamic. I am disengaging, have a great day!
      - mhb 4y ago
        OK. Bye. But use the extra time to find out what ad hominem is.
SAI_Peregrinus 4y ago
Better choice would be to ban gas stoves that don't automatically turn on the hood ventilation. Require the hood to vent outside, require the hood to work automatically, and then you've avoided needing a personal behavior change yet still addressed the issue without banning the cooking method!
elzbardico 4y ago
Most gas range manufacturers either already have induction products or can easily enter the market. The barriers of entry are really low, it is not like you are building 3nm microchips. Brand recognition and existing distribution channels favor existing manufacturers. For the investors perspective it looks like a non-brainer decision to stand behind this ban. Consider how many existing households would feel compelled to retrofit to induction, the ability to have differentiated product lines with premium features commanding premium profit margins. The idea that gas oven manufacturers would not enthusiastically embrace this change reflects a naive and moralistic world view.
u801e 4y ago
Why wouldn't it work? If an automotive trade group suggested that one should not let their car's engine idle in a closed garage and the garage should be open while doing so, the advice would not work? Education has to start from somewhere, regardless of the source.

Trade groups suggesting personal behavior changes to address systemic issues with the thing they sell are such a standard playbook that I am surprised it still works.

mhb 4y ago

So you're saying she's wrong?

formerly_proven 4y ago
That's the point, it isn't. Just like reducing your carbon footprint is good for climate change. Is that an effective way of dealing with climate change? No.
FiloSottile 4y ago
Yes. I am saying the whole concept of public health and safety (as well as information security) is based on the observation that you can't just "tell people to change a behavior". It's like saying that electrical rules in building codes are overreach, because people can just avoid touching exposed wires.
- mhb 4y ago
  OK. So the clause trade groups suggesting is just ad hominem noise. Maybe your point is that making cooking appliances more expensive to improve them in one dimension is worthwhile since it is greater than a person's benefits in some other life dimension.
  - FiloSottile 4y ago
    That's not what "ad hominem" means, and you don't seem interested in discussing any systemic dynamic. I am disengaging, have a great day!
    - mhb 4y ago
      OK. Bye. But use the extra time to find out what ad hominem is.

SAI_Peregrinus 4y ago

Better choice would be to ban gas stoves that don't automatically turn on the hood ventilation. Require the hood to vent outside, require the hood to work automatically, and then you've avoided needing a personal behavior change yet still addressed the issue without banning the cooking method!

elzbardico 4y ago

Most gas range manufacturers either already have induction products or can easily enter the market. The barriers of entry are really low, it is not like you are building 3nm microchips. Brand recognition and existing distribution channels favor existing manufacturers. For the investors perspective it looks like a non-brainer decision to stand behind this ban. Consider how many existing households would feel compelled to retrofit to induction, the ability to have differentiated product lines with premium features commanding premium profit margins. The idea that gas oven manufacturers would not enthusiastically embrace this change reflects a naive and moralistic world view.

u801e 4y ago

Why wouldn't it work? If an automotive trade group suggested that one should not let their car's engine idle in a closed garage and the garage should be open while doing so, the advice would not work? Education has to start from somewhere, regardless of the source.