7 ms·

Cooking on gas could be behind kids' asthma symptoms

64 points by jb1991 4y ago

scandox 4y ago
It's interesting how information bubbles up. Our daughter has asthma. When we were away for 2 months from our home it cleared up substantially. So, we got an air quality monitor (after pretty careful study) last year. Everything was rosy, except the VOCs went off the chart during and after cooking on our gas hob. And now a few months later everywhere I look I see this study.
- jb1991 4y ago
  I wonder how effective the extractor is above the stove, if you always put it on its max fan setting when cooking, would it improve the VOC and other gases detected? Which air quality monitor did you get?
  - ianai 4y ago
    Unless clearly proven otherwise it’s most likely venting into the room.
    - sendfoods 4y ago
      Maybe these type of stovetop-height vents [1] can make a large difference here. [1] https://www.bora.com/be/de/kochfeldabzugssysteme/bora-s-pure/ https://www.bora.com/be/de/kochfeldabzugssysteme/bora-s-pure...
      - tpxl 4y ago
        That design is garbage. Hot stuff from your stove will naturally rise, so capturing it above the stove is much better.
      - manojlds 4y ago
        Is it doing some Harry Potter or Ghostbuster magic? Also, pressure cookers have a vent on the top and blow the steam up. Also what happens to spillages? Edit: they do say this - "If anything is spilt during cooking, the integrated tray safely catches both solids and liquids." - yeah that's gonna go well. Like another commenter says, this is total garbage.
    - jhugo 4y ago
      Is this common? I've only lived in a few places with gas hobs (a couple of places in Europe and a couple of places in Asia), and all of them had an extractor with a vent through the wall to the outside. I thought that was basically universal.
      - Brybry 4y ago
        In the US, especially apartments, kitchen cooktops often have no ventilation (or the hood will even fake vent into a cabinet). I don't really know how it's code but it might be because there's often a window in the room that can be used instead? I think that's how some bathrooms got away with not having a vent too.
    - Tor3 4y ago
      I've never seen one venting into the room. There's always been a vent to outside. Otherwise it would be pointless to have one - like using an air conditioner venting the hot air inside the room.
      - tym0 4y ago
        In the UK all the one I've had vented into the room sadly...
        Tor3 4y ago
        That's.. incredible. Why is it used at all then? It sounds like worse than not using it. If I'm not venting outside when I'm frying something then the smoke alarm goes off too.
        kmlx 4y ago
        because it filters the air, it doesn’t just simply put the air back into the room.
        manojlds 4y ago
        The carbon filter removes smoke and such right, so the smoke alarm won't be triggered. What do you mean when I'm not venting outside? You mean when you are not running the extractor?
        Tor3 4y ago
        Sometimes when I'm running the extractor I may at the same time have the door to the living room open and the kitchen window open and running the living room wood stove at maximum - if I do, it sucks so much air from the room that the ventilator in the kitchen doesn't get a chance: The stove takes air via the kitchen window and goes straight past the ventilator even if at max, and into the living room. Where the detector sniffs enough to notice. A rare situation of course, but it has happened to me a handful of times over the years (and also the opposite - ventilator in kitchen running at max, kitchen window closed, living room wood stove going, the vent sucks smoke from the living room wood stove and the smoke detector goes off). As to the other comment - my ventilator doesn't have a carbon filter and I have little experience with those. I recon it will remedy some of the problems with re-venting back into the room compared with the alternative (using nothing). And I've seen vents in Japan with carbon filters, or at least something similar - but they vent outside, not inside. I wonder though about all the other kind of fumes from cooking, the metal-grid "filter" in my vent gets quite greasy and needs to be washed and cleaned now and then.
    - is_true 4y ago
      If it's venting in the room it's a filter, not a extractor
  - hannob 4y ago
    > I wonder how effective the extractor is above the stove, if you always put it on its max fan setting when cooking, would it improve the VOC and other gases detected? The answer is likely "Yes, it improves things a little bit, but it's still a terrible idea to keep a device spitting dangerous emissions inside your home".
    - bayindirh 4y ago
      > it's still a terrible idea to keep a device spitting dangerous emissions inside your home. I completely agree, but some people will grab their burning pitchforks and will try to convince you that they can't cook as well on an electric stove. I use both of them, and gas considerably lowers the air quality (I can feel it), and prefer electric very much, however it has a learning curve, and people don't want to change. Also, AFAIK, you can't use a wok as it's meant to be used on an electric stove.
      - kibwen 4y ago
        Every militant gas-stove evangelist that I have personally known has done an about-face after a month of using a simple countertop induction cooktop. Their expensive high-end gas ranges are literally gathering dust. The ability to have such precise and rapid control over stovetop temperature is utterly transformative in a way that almost nobody realizes yet. (To be fair, it's hard to fully capitalize on this transformation since most cookbooks are still written with primitive "set the burner to 'high'" rather than "set the burner to exact so-and-so degrees".) As for woks, that hasn't stopped China from being the largest market for induction cooktops, and they even make custom-shaped induction cooktops designed for woks.
      - robinsonb5 4y ago
        I have a gas cooker which was already installed when I moved into my currentl home. I don't particularly care whether I'm cooking on a gas flame, an induction ring or an old fashioned electric element - but at a time when we keep hearing about the risk of rolling power cuts, I care more that I can still heat up food and water even when the power's out.
  - jonahbenton 4y ago
    Sample size of one, but ours is pretty effective (and loud lol)! We have an old Wolf stove, the fan vents directly outside, and I have been ad hoc testing it with an Awair sensor over the past year. Without running the fan the Awair score drops from the 90s to the 40-50s pretty quickly when running the stove (either oven or surface) and takes about 45 minutes to return to normal once the stove is off. With the fan on high the score stays in the high 70s to 80s. My ears, tho...
- vintermann 4y ago
  There's been some people pushing air quality hard lately, not least dynomight, a blogger who seems to have getting on HN's front page worked out pretty well. Not that I have anything against it. I got an air purifier myself over these discussions - it seemed like a fairly cheap and easy thing to do in the time of covid, without worrying too much who's behind any possible influence campaigns. And of course I noticed that my indoors air quality was excellent, except when I was cooking. And I don't even use gas, I use an old non-induction electric stovetop. It's hard to get temperatures right. Considering getting both an induction stove, and a better sensor that could track CO2 too. After a year with air purification, and after the first bout of a cough-cold in a year, I feel like I appreciate the service my lungs give to my body. Nice to take better care of them (it's time to change that HEPA filter too).
  - prepend 4y ago
    > I got an air purifier myself over these discussions I’ve been investigating this and the market seems crowded. Do you have any research that you did to help you decide? What model did you go with and why? Sorry for the digression, but I think a random HN reader’s pick is more useful than SEO’s Google results or ConsumerReports or Wirecutter.
    - donkeyd 4y ago
      Purifiers are all about the filters, anything else is pretty much just marketing BS. On that note, Ikea has some air purifiers[0] that aren't very expensive and use HEPA filters with optional carbon filter to remove smells. They have basic ones and 'smart' ones in different form factors (even one that is a table!). We have cats and it really helped removed the cat smell from out house. [0] https://dynomight.net/ikea-purifier/ https://dynomight.net/ikea-purifier/
    - vintermann 4y ago
      I got some Electrolux thing with HEPA filters. It looked nice, was on sale, and didn't do terrible in the tests I could find. The filters are expensive, though - probably unnecessarily so, and the app integration thing is kind of iffy. I have a lingering suspicion that if I replaced the filters with something "unapproved" it wouldn't start, and I hate that sort of thing. But maybe I'm just being paranoid. There was some sort of notice about source availability on request, so I think it uses GPL software in there somewhere. In short, I should have done better research myself. But at least it works.
DoingIsLearning 4y ago
As someone who enjoys cooking and having moved to a house with induction hobs, it did take time to build some intuition when using it. But now looking back gas absolutely feels medieval at this point. Unless you are some high end chef you will not miss out on much by changing to an induction hob and you get a massive indoor air quality boost.
- k_sze 4y ago
  Hah! We Chinese (generally) swear by open flame cooking! Induction/heating element doesn’t add the same flavour. In rural areas that still use firewood, we can tell the different flavours given by wood from different trees. You don’t need to be a high end chef.
  - sendfoods 4y ago
    That's one of the things I am curious about in the future. From a different comment: > Wok cooking without gas is unimaginable to many people, what's a possible solution here? Roasting/blackening vegetables over gas in Indian and other cuisines. Sure, you can use an electric oven, but is this really more efficient?
    - kibwen 4y ago
      Induction stoves aren't merely a replacement for gas ranges, they bring whole new capabilities to the table. In addition to the precision and speed that you get, you can also cook at drastically lower temperatures than gas ranges are even capable of. In a century, once habits have had time to develop and society has had time to adjust, we'll say "cooking without induction is unimaginable to many people".
    - ufo 4y ago
      Induction ovens are more efficient than an resistive heating element and can transfer a lot of heat into the pan. Just as much as a flame or even more. The difficulty with woks is that flat induction cooktops are only compatible with flat-bottomed cookware. You need a flat-bottomed wok, or a special concave cooktop made just for woks.
bloopernova 4y ago
AirThings air quality monitors! If you're worried about indoor air quality, I enthusiastically recommend them. They provide a no-subscription app that displays various sensor readings, charts over time, etc. Plus a web dashboard with the same kind of information, and an API with pretty good instructions on grabbing info: https://developer.airthings.com/docs/api-postman-insomnia https://developer.airthings.com/docs/api-postman-insomnia I was worried about air quality and wasn't having much luck making my own sensors, so I bought a couple of AirThings air sensors. Lucky I did. Our furnace air intake pipe had been blocked by multiple birds nests, and the secondary pipe for the water heater was incorrectly connected. Our indoor CO2 levels were higher than 4,000ppm! The levels would also jump when the furnace kicked on, even with windows open. Thankfully apartment complex maintenance was able to fix it immediately and levels are much lower now, especially when the furnace is running. (About 500ppm with windows open, 700 with them closed and furnace running, 1,100ppm if the windows haven't been open and the furnace hasn't run for a while.) It's possible our health has improved because of the sensors. I got 2 AirThings View Plus. I'm not affiliated with the company other than having bought their products.
- gkhartman 4y ago
  Seconding this. I picked up an Airthings wave plus sensor a few months back and have been quite happy with it. I was shocked by how quickly the co2 value would rise in my home office during a typical work day. Now I can tell when I need to open a window to let in fresh air to avoid feeling drowsy. I was able to connect it to my Home Assistant server using a USB Bluetooth dongle which was a nice bonus.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    I was also surprised. I bought another brand of data logging monitor and could easily see which days were weekends and which days I’d worked from the office or been on a trip. From the readings, I came up with alternative hypothesis about why I felt tired in the afternoon and could use ventilation to reduce that.
- dotancohen 4y ago
  I'm skeptical of products when they have copy such as this on their homepage: > Virus > Tracking your humidity and keeping CO2 levels low will greatly reduce spread of virus. I know nothing about the product other than seeing some enthusiasm for it on HN, but writing like this would typically be enough for me to discount purchasing anything from the company.
sendfoods 4y ago
To my knowledge this has been known for a while, but it's moving into public consciousness as part of the ongoing debates about climate and fossil fuels. What will be very interesting to watch are the cultural developments around the stove: Wok cooking without gas is unimaginable to many people, what's a possible solution here? Roasting/blackening vegetables over gas in Indian and other cuisines. Sure, you can use an electric oven, but is this really more efficient? Personally, for me, an induction stovetop and a single gas unit is the dream. Perfect wok cooking, some veggie blackening, I can still use some (warped on electric stove) antique, thin castiron pieces from my grandparents. But the other 90% of the time, induction is just insanely more precise, fast and easy to use.
- jhugo 4y ago
  > Wok cooking without gas is unimaginable to many people, what's a possible solution here? There are actually some excellent electric woks. > Sure, you can use an electric oven, but is this really more efficient? It's probably not that different in terms of efficiency, I would have thought. But it could even be acceptable for it to be a bit less efficient if it is less harmful for the occupants of the house.
  - sendfoods 4y ago
    Fair point. I was arguing from the efficiency perspective alone.
- mhitza 4y ago
  There are induction wok stoves. Only stumbled upon them recently myself as well https://cdn.webshopapp.com/shops/99626/files/334365439/maxima-induction-wok-wok-burner-3500w.jpg https://cdn.webshopapp.com/shops/99626/files/334365439/maxim...
  - sendfoods 4y ago
    - Not arguing, just repeating arguments I have heard - Not sure if you can achieve wok hei with those (which seems to be THE thing that differentiates wok cooking from anything else). Some background from the nyt: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/04/dining/stir-fry-recipe-wok-hei.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/04/dining/stir-fry-recipe-wo...
LatteLazy 4y ago
The report's author is committed to getting rid of gas and has been campaigning for that for decades. The report itself is very light on actual facts and figures and seems to be a correlation study between countries. The report makes several "leaps" in it's logic (gas cookers produce at least some CO, so do cigarettes, therefore there is no differences between them). Given these factors and the lack of any actual comparison of the average particulate/CO/NO etc level in a kitchen or in a room with a lit cigarette, I find the claims unsupported at best...
AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
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everdrive 4y ago
Does anyone know of a good air quality sensor that doesn't require a smartphone or internet access? I know plenty exist, but I'm curious if anyone has any recommendations. We have a 'dumb' CO2 sensor in our house, and it's been a great analogue for air quality. It might sound stupid, we keep a window fan in for as much of the year that we can. It does wonders for indoor CO2, and hopefully wonders for anything else we shouldn't be breathing.
- newsclues 4y ago
  Do those exist without building them yourself like https://www.airgradient.com/open-airgradient/instructions/diy/ https://www.airgradient.com/open-airgradient/instructions/di... ? I too would like air quality sensors but have no interest in collecting data for the company I buy the device from.
  - ahaucnx 4y ago
    We do offer a pre-soldered kit that can be built very easily within a few minutes. Details on: https://www.airgradient.com/open-airgradient/kits/ https://www.airgradient.com/open-airgradient/kits/
kerrsclyde 4y ago
Discussed previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31630946 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31630946
vintermann 4y ago
It looks like the original source for the study is https://clasp.ngo/research/all/eu-gas-cooking-health/ https://clasp.ngo/research/all/eu-gas-cooking-health/ The currently linked article is only a very brief summary.
- mstef 4y ago
  yes, and that is more of a lobbyist paper aimed at policymakers, it refers to some TNO studies as the "scientific" basis for the claims, but those studies are not publicly available, at least they're not linked directly in the references section, and searching for them also doesn't give immediate results. the other thing they refer to are "simulations" which have little value in proving the statements. otherwise the whole thing is a confusion between causality and correlation. as it stands i consider this a bullshit paper pushing some political agenda, possibly by induction heating manufacturers or electricity companies.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    It's exactly what it is.
  - vintermann 4y ago
    Most of the scientific claims seem pretty uncontroversial to me. It's true NOx is bad for respiratory health. It's almost certainly true that gas cooking produces NOx, and higher levels of CO2 and probably some carbon monoxide as well. It comes on top of the VOCs from the cooking itself. Public health is probably a sufficient reason to phase out gas for cooking wherever we can.
a_c 4y ago
Is asian culture, where gas cooking is more essential, having more people asthma? My impression is that western culture has more allergies than eastern ones. Not sure is it because of awareness or other factors. I also read that dust mite might be a major cause for allergies.
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  One difference is that many Asian climates tend to be warmer, and housing and kitchens are often better ventilated, especially during winter. It's tricky to compare the two.
fredgrott 4y ago
This would imply that switching to burning hydrogen instead of gasoline should involve finding out what pollution is increased and decreased from such a fuel in transportation and shipping switch. I would imagine part of the perception problem is that when we can see pollution as in a natural fire to roast meat as oppose to burning some fuel source to form the fire in which we really do not physically see the pollution although it is there.
nemo44x 4y ago
This us just a climate change propaganda article. The actual cooking of the food and oil (especially if it smokes) is more dangerous than anything. And all cooking surfaces do that. Get a good vent system (> 500 cubic feet/minute) with a makeup-air unit (this is code nowadays) and you’ll never even know cooking happened.
- bombcar 4y ago
  The good vent is so key. Most every house I’ve seen has a quite inadequate fan. It should be larger than the top of the stove and it should have noticeable air movement when on - and you need to have makeup air.
kkfx 4y ago
Ahem... I do not know how much USA average family cook but... Typically a home is not sealed: an old one without a VMC typically leak air from multiple places and both have people coming and going without Star Trek teleport so opening and shutting doors... That's to say even poor ventilated environment with normal gas cooking do not saturate enough the air of CO₂ and water to cause any symptom... Small gas stove to heat maybe it's different, but cooking...
Stephen-E 4y ago
1-2 years ago someone posted here (or on Reddit?) an air quality monitoring device with a beautiful UI that was available for purchase for something like $300-400 USD. The onboard display showed a graph of AQI with a small knob to scroll through history. The sensors used were far more sensitive than most consumer products at that pricepoint. This was something someone had made and was selling through their own site. Anyone remember this? I'm unable to find it.
effnorwood 4y ago
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slackfan 4y ago
Well if you keep building houses where mechanical ventilation is required but inevitably only specced to keep mold down, dont be too surprised at this.
infecto 4y ago
Some various thoughts from different related threads. I would go a step further and argue that western kitchens are built incorrectly and should be outside of the living areas and in fact outside of the building itself. My wife and I typically cook outside only using an outdoor kitchen. It is impossible to properly vent cooking pollutants from a house. You would end up having to use a commercial vent hood and with that most likely design a makeup air system to prevent a vacuum inside of the house, not worth it imo. Induction is awesome but does have its limitations. I think it would be pretty hard to replicate wok style cooking with induction, you want not only the bottom but the sides to get hot as well. My own experience most 30+ asian households would prefer to cook on gas, younger generations just eat out and do not care. High temp searing on induction can cause premature failure in the unit. Have seen it happen across the spectrum of prices, there is just too much heat going into the induction unit. With that said, induction is indeed awesome. If I did not have access to an outdoor kitchen I would prefer the style of a Chinese apartment kitchen. I am sure it can vary but most/all of the chinese apartments I have seen have a kitchen setup in such a way that it can be isolated from the rest of the unit. When cooking you can slide the glass doors closed, open the window and turn on the vent hood. Almost like being outside.
- anthlax 4y ago
  Do you have sources for the claim that “western kitchens are built incorrectly”? Or are you referring to the same studies as in the OP? It feels intuitive but I would like to see the extent of damage. As someone looking to build a home this could be extremely relevant.
  - infecto 4y ago
    I don't have studies to back this claim up directly and I think this is one of those areas that are hard to study because I am assuming it would require recording participants through their lifetime. I do think this will be something that seems obvious once we do look back at it. Here is my line of thinking, apologies it is not well put together and is only a stream of thoughts. 1. We now accept that cooking with wood causes lung disease/cancer. There are studies that show an increased rate of lung issues with women in developing countries due to inhalation of smoke. 2. We are increasingly seeing studies that show inhaling any pollutants is not safe/healthy. I am not fear mongering about it but I do try to be more aware because of this. 3. When I cook in my kitchen I see pm2 and voc measurments spike almost instantly even on measurement devices in a bedroom across the house. This is without having central air on at the time. Our home is 20ish years old and not modern air tight. I once burned some bread in the oven slightly, just the smallest bit of visible smoke came out of the oven, readings spiked and stayed that way for 2hours even with two medium size hepa filters on. 4. I originally came to my conclusion prior to the more recent studies showing indoor natural gas combustion can be an issue. Originall I was more concerned with pollutants that come from the cooking process as it is very hard to ventilate inside a house. When I originally read some of these studies and it appeared that the main issue was burners that were combusting improperly. So its mostly my own extrapolation based on what has been seen in populations that are exposed to pollutants on a regular basis. I could be overthinking it but it makes sense to me that its best to reduce exposure where possible. I cook outside and it keeps both the smells and the pollutants out of the home. And I also just make my original statement with the functionality of chinese style apartment kitchens. The kitchen is almost like a wetroom in a sense but for smells. It closes off from the rest of the unit and is open to the outside so you can do whatever you want cooking wise and not impact the rest of the unit.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
Buy high quality air filters. We have had one running in our kids room for 11 years straight now. Crazy what it has prevented them from breathing in while sleeping. Lots of unnatural plastic dust in modern living.
Havoc 4y ago
I’m continually amazed how enthusiastic people are about burning fossil fuels in confined spaces
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
EricE 4y ago
I never thought burning an open flame inside was a bright idea. I went induction quite a few years ago - once you get used to the instant control and power (good conductive cookware is key) it's hard to go back to traditional gas or electric. New house I bought the builder only offered gas so I had them wire it for electric and swapping cooktops was one of the first things I did after I moved in.
netmonk 4y ago
Asthma has nothing to do with gas or kitchen air. But let’s continue to brainwash for money and FUD. http://www.asthma-reality.com http://www.asthma-reality.com
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

64 points by jb1991 4y ago

It's interesting how information bubbles up. Our daughter has asthma. When we were away for 2 months from our home it cleared up substantially. So, we got an air quality monitor (after pretty careful study) last year. Everything was rosy, except the VOCs went off the chart during and after cooking on our gas hob. And now a few months later everywhere I look I see this study.

jb1991 4y ago
I wonder how effective the extractor is above the stove, if you always put it on its max fan setting when cooking, would it improve the VOC and other gases detected? Which air quality monitor did you get?
- ianai 4y ago
  Unless clearly proven otherwise it’s most likely venting into the room.
  - sendfoods 4y ago
    Maybe these type of stovetop-height vents [1] can make a large difference here. [1] https://www.bora.com/be/de/kochfeldabzugssysteme/bora-s-pure/ https://www.bora.com/be/de/kochfeldabzugssysteme/bora-s-pure...
    - tpxl 4y ago
      That design is garbage. Hot stuff from your stove will naturally rise, so capturing it above the stove is much better.
    - manojlds 4y ago
      Is it doing some Harry Potter or Ghostbuster magic? Also, pressure cookers have a vent on the top and blow the steam up. Also what happens to spillages? Edit: they do say this - "If anything is spilt during cooking, the integrated tray safely catches both solids and liquids." - yeah that's gonna go well. Like another commenter says, this is total garbage.
  - jhugo 4y ago
    Is this common? I've only lived in a few places with gas hobs (a couple of places in Europe and a couple of places in Asia), and all of them had an extractor with a vent through the wall to the outside. I thought that was basically universal.
    - Brybry 4y ago
      In the US, especially apartments, kitchen cooktops often have no ventilation (or the hood will even fake vent into a cabinet). I don't really know how it's code but it might be because there's often a window in the room that can be used instead? I think that's how some bathrooms got away with not having a vent too.
  - Tor3 4y ago
    I've never seen one venting into the room. There's always been a vent to outside. Otherwise it would be pointless to have one - like using an air conditioner venting the hot air inside the room.
    - tym0 4y ago
      In the UK all the one I've had vented into the room sadly...
      - Tor3 4y ago
        That's.. incredible. Why is it used at all then? It sounds like worse than not using it. If I'm not venting outside when I'm frying something then the smoke alarm goes off too.
        kmlx 4y ago
        because it filters the air, it doesn’t just simply put the air back into the room.
        manojlds 4y ago
        The carbon filter removes smoke and such right, so the smoke alarm won't be triggered. What do you mean when I'm not venting outside? You mean when you are not running the extractor?
        Tor3 4y ago
        Sometimes when I'm running the extractor I may at the same time have the door to the living room open and the kitchen window open and running the living room wood stove at maximum - if I do, it sucks so much air from the room that the ventilator in the kitchen doesn't get a chance: The stove takes air via the kitchen window and goes straight past the ventilator even if at max, and into the living room. Where the detector sniffs enough to notice. A rare situation of course, but it has happened to me a handful of times over the years (and also the opposite - ventilator in kitchen running at max, kitchen window closed, living room wood stove going, the vent sucks smoke from the living room wood stove and the smoke detector goes off). As to the other comment - my ventilator doesn't have a carbon filter and I have little experience with those. I recon it will remedy some of the problems with re-venting back into the room compared with the alternative (using nothing). And I've seen vents in Japan with carbon filters, or at least something similar - but they vent outside, not inside. I wonder though about all the other kind of fumes from cooking, the metal-grid "filter" in my vent gets quite greasy and needs to be washed and cleaned now and then.
  - is_true 4y ago
    If it's venting in the room it's a filter, not a extractor
- hannob 4y ago
  > I wonder how effective the extractor is above the stove, if you always put it on its max fan setting when cooking, would it improve the VOC and other gases detected? The answer is likely "Yes, it improves things a little bit, but it's still a terrible idea to keep a device spitting dangerous emissions inside your home".
  - bayindirh 4y ago
    > it's still a terrible idea to keep a device spitting dangerous emissions inside your home. I completely agree, but some people will grab their burning pitchforks and will try to convince you that they can't cook as well on an electric stove. I use both of them, and gas considerably lowers the air quality (I can feel it), and prefer electric very much, however it has a learning curve, and people don't want to change. Also, AFAIK, you can't use a wok as it's meant to be used on an electric stove.
    - kibwen 4y ago
      Every militant gas-stove evangelist that I have personally known has done an about-face after a month of using a simple countertop induction cooktop. Their expensive high-end gas ranges are literally gathering dust. The ability to have such precise and rapid control over stovetop temperature is utterly transformative in a way that almost nobody realizes yet. (To be fair, it's hard to fully capitalize on this transformation since most cookbooks are still written with primitive "set the burner to 'high'" rather than "set the burner to exact so-and-so degrees".) As for woks, that hasn't stopped China from being the largest market for induction cooktops, and they even make custom-shaped induction cooktops designed for woks.
    - robinsonb5 4y ago
      I have a gas cooker which was already installed when I moved into my currentl home. I don't particularly care whether I'm cooking on a gas flame, an induction ring or an old fashioned electric element - but at a time when we keep hearing about the risk of rolling power cuts, I care more that I can still heat up food and water even when the power's out.
- jonahbenton 4y ago
  Sample size of one, but ours is pretty effective (and loud lol)! We have an old Wolf stove, the fan vents directly outside, and I have been ad hoc testing it with an Awair sensor over the past year. Without running the fan the Awair score drops from the 90s to the 40-50s pretty quickly when running the stove (either oven or surface) and takes about 45 minutes to return to normal once the stove is off. With the fan on high the score stays in the high 70s to 80s. My ears, tho...
vintermann 4y ago
There's been some people pushing air quality hard lately, not least dynomight, a blogger who seems to have getting on HN's front page worked out pretty well. Not that I have anything against it. I got an air purifier myself over these discussions - it seemed like a fairly cheap and easy thing to do in the time of covid, without worrying too much who's behind any possible influence campaigns. And of course I noticed that my indoors air quality was excellent, except when I was cooking. And I don't even use gas, I use an old non-induction electric stovetop. It's hard to get temperatures right. Considering getting both an induction stove, and a better sensor that could track CO2 too. After a year with air purification, and after the first bout of a cough-cold in a year, I feel like I appreciate the service my lungs give to my body. Nice to take better care of them (it's time to change that HEPA filter too).
- prepend 4y ago
  > I got an air purifier myself over these discussions I’ve been investigating this and the market seems crowded. Do you have any research that you did to help you decide? What model did you go with and why? Sorry for the digression, but I think a random HN reader’s pick is more useful than SEO’s Google results or ConsumerReports or Wirecutter.
  - donkeyd 4y ago
    Purifiers are all about the filters, anything else is pretty much just marketing BS. On that note, Ikea has some air purifiers[0] that aren't very expensive and use HEPA filters with optional carbon filter to remove smells. They have basic ones and 'smart' ones in different form factors (even one that is a table!). We have cats and it really helped removed the cat smell from out house. [0] https://dynomight.net/ikea-purifier/ https://dynomight.net/ikea-purifier/
  - vintermann 4y ago
    I got some Electrolux thing with HEPA filters. It looked nice, was on sale, and didn't do terrible in the tests I could find. The filters are expensive, though - probably unnecessarily so, and the app integration thing is kind of iffy. I have a lingering suspicion that if I replaced the filters with something "unapproved" it wouldn't start, and I hate that sort of thing. But maybe I'm just being paranoid. There was some sort of notice about source availability on request, so I think it uses GPL software in there somewhere. In short, I should have done better research myself. But at least it works.

DoingIsLearning 4y ago

As someone who enjoys cooking and having moved to a house with induction hobs, it did take time to build some intuition when using it. But now looking back gas absolutely feels medieval at this point. Unless you are some high end chef you will not miss out on much by changing to an induction hob and you get a massive indoor air quality boost.

k_sze 4y ago
Hah! We Chinese (generally) swear by open flame cooking! Induction/heating element doesn’t add the same flavour. In rural areas that still use firewood, we can tell the different flavours given by wood from different trees. You don’t need to be a high end chef.
- sendfoods 4y ago
  That's one of the things I am curious about in the future. From a different comment: > Wok cooking without gas is unimaginable to many people, what's a possible solution here? Roasting/blackening vegetables over gas in Indian and other cuisines. Sure, you can use an electric oven, but is this really more efficient?
  - kibwen 4y ago
    Induction stoves aren't merely a replacement for gas ranges, they bring whole new capabilities to the table. In addition to the precision and speed that you get, you can also cook at drastically lower temperatures than gas ranges are even capable of. In a century, once habits have had time to develop and society has had time to adjust, we'll say "cooking without induction is unimaginable to many people".
  - ufo 4y ago
    Induction ovens are more efficient than an resistive heating element and can transfer a lot of heat into the pan. Just as much as a flame or even more. The difficulty with woks is that flat induction cooktops are only compatible with flat-bottomed cookware. You need a flat-bottomed wok, or a special concave cooktop made just for woks.

bloopernova 4y ago

AirThings air quality monitors! If you're worried about indoor air quality, I enthusiastically recommend them. They provide a no-subscription app that displays various sensor readings, charts over time, etc. Plus a web dashboard with the same kind of information, and an API with pretty good instructions on grabbing info: https://developer.airthings.com/docs/api-postman-insomnia https://developer.airthings.com/docs/api-postman-insomnia I was worried about air quality and wasn't having much luck making my own sensors, so I bought a couple of AirThings air sensors. Lucky I did. Our furnace air intake pipe had been blocked by multiple birds nests, and the secondary pipe for the water heater was incorrectly connected. Our indoor CO2 levels were higher than 4,000ppm! The levels would also jump when the furnace kicked on, even with windows open. Thankfully apartment complex maintenance was able to fix it immediately and levels are much lower now, especially when the furnace is running. (About 500ppm with windows open, 700 with them closed and furnace running, 1,100ppm if the windows haven't been open and the furnace hasn't run for a while.) It's possible our health has improved because of the sensors. I got 2 AirThings View Plus. I'm not affiliated with the company other than having bought their products.

gkhartman 4y ago
Seconding this. I picked up an Airthings wave plus sensor a few months back and have been quite happy with it. I was shocked by how quickly the co2 value would rise in my home office during a typical work day. Now I can tell when I need to open a window to let in fresh air to avoid feeling drowsy. I was able to connect it to my Home Assistant server using a USB Bluetooth dongle which was a nice bonus.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  I was also surprised. I bought another brand of data logging monitor and could easily see which days were weekends and which days I’d worked from the office or been on a trip. From the readings, I came up with alternative hypothesis about why I felt tired in the afternoon and could use ventilation to reduce that.
dotancohen 4y ago
I'm skeptical of products when they have copy such as this on their homepage: > Virus > Tracking your humidity and keeping CO2 levels low will greatly reduce spread of virus. I know nothing about the product other than seeing some enthusiasm for it on HN, but writing like this would typically be enough for me to discount purchasing anything from the company.

sendfoods 4y ago

To my knowledge this has been known for a while, but it's moving into public consciousness as part of the ongoing debates about climate and fossil fuels. What will be very interesting to watch are the cultural developments around the stove: Wok cooking without gas is unimaginable to many people, what's a possible solution here? Roasting/blackening vegetables over gas in Indian and other cuisines. Sure, you can use an electric oven, but is this really more efficient? Personally, for me, an induction stovetop and a single gas unit is the dream. Perfect wok cooking, some veggie blackening, I can still use some (warped on electric stove) antique, thin castiron pieces from my grandparents. But the other 90% of the time, induction is just insanely more precise, fast and easy to use.

jhugo 4y ago
> Wok cooking without gas is unimaginable to many people, what's a possible solution here? There are actually some excellent electric woks. > Sure, you can use an electric oven, but is this really more efficient? It's probably not that different in terms of efficiency, I would have thought. But it could even be acceptable for it to be a bit less efficient if it is less harmful for the occupants of the house.
- sendfoods 4y ago
  Fair point. I was arguing from the efficiency perspective alone.
mhitza 4y ago
There are induction wok stoves. Only stumbled upon them recently myself as well https://cdn.webshopapp.com/shops/99626/files/334365439/maxima-induction-wok-wok-burner-3500w.jpg https://cdn.webshopapp.com/shops/99626/files/334365439/maxim...
- sendfoods 4y ago
  - Not arguing, just repeating arguments I have heard - Not sure if you can achieve wok hei with those (which seems to be THE thing that differentiates wok cooking from anything else). Some background from the nyt: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/04/dining/stir-fry-recipe-wok-hei.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/04/dining/stir-fry-recipe-wo...

LatteLazy 4y ago

The report's author is committed to getting rid of gas and has been campaigning for that for decades. The report itself is very light on actual facts and figures and seems to be a correlation study between countries. The report makes several "leaps" in it's logic (gas cookers produce at least some CO, so do cigarettes, therefore there is no differences between them). Given these factors and the lack of any actual comparison of the average particulate/CO/NO etc level in a kitchen or in a room with a lit cigarette, I find the claims unsupported at best...

AlgorithmicTime 4y ago

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everdrive 4y ago

Does anyone know of a good air quality sensor that doesn't require a smartphone or internet access? I know plenty exist, but I'm curious if anyone has any recommendations. We have a 'dumb' CO2 sensor in our house, and it's been a great analogue for air quality. It might sound stupid, we keep a window fan in for as much of the year that we can. It does wonders for indoor CO2, and hopefully wonders for anything else we shouldn't be breathing.

newsclues 4y ago
Do those exist without building them yourself like https://www.airgradient.com/open-airgradient/instructions/diy/ https://www.airgradient.com/open-airgradient/instructions/di... ? I too would like air quality sensors but have no interest in collecting data for the company I buy the device from.
- ahaucnx 4y ago
  We do offer a pre-soldered kit that can be built very easily within a few minutes. Details on: https://www.airgradient.com/open-airgradient/kits/ https://www.airgradient.com/open-airgradient/kits/

kerrsclyde 4y ago

Discussed previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31630946 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31630946

vintermann 4y ago

It looks like the original source for the study is https://clasp.ngo/research/all/eu-gas-cooking-health/ https://clasp.ngo/research/all/eu-gas-cooking-health/ The currently linked article is only a very brief summary.

mstef 4y ago
yes, and that is more of a lobbyist paper aimed at policymakers, it refers to some TNO studies as the "scientific" basis for the claims, but those studies are not publicly available, at least they're not linked directly in the references section, and searching for them also doesn't give immediate results. the other thing they refer to are "simulations" which have little value in proving the statements. otherwise the whole thing is a confusion between causality and correlation. as it stands i consider this a bullshit paper pushing some political agenda, possibly by induction heating manufacturers or electricity companies.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  It's exactly what it is.
- vintermann 4y ago
  Most of the scientific claims seem pretty uncontroversial to me. It's true NOx is bad for respiratory health. It's almost certainly true that gas cooking produces NOx, and higher levels of CO2 and probably some carbon monoxide as well. It comes on top of the VOCs from the cooking itself. Public health is probably a sufficient reason to phase out gas for cooking wherever we can.

a_c 4y ago

Is asian culture, where gas cooking is more essential, having more people asthma? My impression is that western culture has more allergies than eastern ones. Not sure is it because of awareness or other factors. I also read that dust mite might be a major cause for allergies.

Beltalowda 4y ago
One difference is that many Asian climates tend to be warmer, and housing and kitchens are often better ventilated, especially during winter. It's tricky to compare the two.

fredgrott 4y ago

This would imply that switching to burning hydrogen instead of gasoline should involve finding out what pollution is increased and decreased from such a fuel in transportation and shipping switch. I would imagine part of the perception problem is that when we can see pollution as in a natural fire to roast meat as oppose to burning some fuel source to form the fire in which we really do not physically see the pollution although it is there.

nemo44x 4y ago

This us just a climate change propaganda article. The actual cooking of the food and oil (especially if it smokes) is more dangerous than anything. And all cooking surfaces do that. Get a good vent system (> 500 cubic feet/minute) with a makeup-air unit (this is code nowadays) and you’ll never even know cooking happened.

bombcar 4y ago
The good vent is so key. Most every house I’ve seen has a quite inadequate fan. It should be larger than the top of the stove and it should have noticeable air movement when on - and you need to have makeup air.

kkfx 4y ago

Ahem... I do not know how much USA average family cook but... Typically a home is not sealed: an old one without a VMC typically leak air from multiple places and both have people coming and going without Star Trek teleport so opening and shutting doors... That's to say even poor ventilated environment with normal gas cooking do not saturate enough the air of CO₂ and water to cause any symptom... Small gas stove to heat maybe it's different, but cooking...

Stephen-E 4y ago

1-2 years ago someone posted here (or on Reddit?) an air quality monitoring device with a beautiful UI that was available for purchase for something like $300-400 USD. The onboard display showed a graph of AQI with a small knob to scroll through history. The sensors used were far more sensitive than most consumer products at that pricepoint. This was something someone had made and was selling through their own site. Anyone remember this? I'm unable to find it.

effnorwood 4y ago

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slackfan 4y ago

Well if you keep building houses where mechanical ventilation is required but inevitably only specced to keep mold down, dont be too surprised at this.

infecto 4y ago

Some various thoughts from different related threads. I would go a step further and argue that western kitchens are built incorrectly and should be outside of the living areas and in fact outside of the building itself. My wife and I typically cook outside only using an outdoor kitchen. It is impossible to properly vent cooking pollutants from a house. You would end up having to use a commercial vent hood and with that most likely design a makeup air system to prevent a vacuum inside of the house, not worth it imo. Induction is awesome but does have its limitations. I think it would be pretty hard to replicate wok style cooking with induction, you want not only the bottom but the sides to get hot as well. My own experience most 30+ asian households would prefer to cook on gas, younger generations just eat out and do not care. High temp searing on induction can cause premature failure in the unit. Have seen it happen across the spectrum of prices, there is just too much heat going into the induction unit. With that said, induction is indeed awesome. If I did not have access to an outdoor kitchen I would prefer the style of a Chinese apartment kitchen. I am sure it can vary but most/all of the chinese apartments I have seen have a kitchen setup in such a way that it can be isolated from the rest of the unit. When cooking you can slide the glass doors closed, open the window and turn on the vent hood. Almost like being outside.

anthlax 4y ago
Do you have sources for the claim that “western kitchens are built incorrectly”? Or are you referring to the same studies as in the OP? It feels intuitive but I would like to see the extent of damage. As someone looking to build a home this could be extremely relevant.
- infecto 4y ago
  I don't have studies to back this claim up directly and I think this is one of those areas that are hard to study because I am assuming it would require recording participants through their lifetime. I do think this will be something that seems obvious once we do look back at it. Here is my line of thinking, apologies it is not well put together and is only a stream of thoughts. 1. We now accept that cooking with wood causes lung disease/cancer. There are studies that show an increased rate of lung issues with women in developing countries due to inhalation of smoke. 2. We are increasingly seeing studies that show inhaling any pollutants is not safe/healthy. I am not fear mongering about it but I do try to be more aware because of this. 3. When I cook in my kitchen I see pm2 and voc measurments spike almost instantly even on measurement devices in a bedroom across the house. This is without having central air on at the time. Our home is 20ish years old and not modern air tight. I once burned some bread in the oven slightly, just the smallest bit of visible smoke came out of the oven, readings spiked and stayed that way for 2hours even with two medium size hepa filters on. 4. I originally came to my conclusion prior to the more recent studies showing indoor natural gas combustion can be an issue. Originall I was more concerned with pollutants that come from the cooking process as it is very hard to ventilate inside a house. When I originally read some of these studies and it appeared that the main issue was burners that were combusting improperly. So its mostly my own extrapolation based on what has been seen in populations that are exposed to pollutants on a regular basis. I could be overthinking it but it makes sense to me that its best to reduce exposure where possible. I cook outside and it keeps both the smells and the pollutants out of the home. And I also just make my original statement with the functionality of chinese style apartment kitchens. The kitchen is almost like a wetroom in a sense but for smells. It closes off from the rest of the unit and is open to the outside so you can do whatever you want cooking wise and not impact the rest of the unit.

mensetmanusman 4y ago

Buy high quality air filters. We have had one running in our kids room for 11 years straight now. Crazy what it has prevented them from breathing in while sleeping. Lots of unnatural plastic dust in modern living.

Havoc 4y ago

I’m continually amazed how enthusiastic people are about burning fossil fuels in confined spaces

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EricE 4y ago

I never thought burning an open flame inside was a bright idea. I went induction quite a few years ago - once you get used to the instant control and power (good conductive cookware is key) it's hard to go back to traditional gas or electric. New house I bought the builder only offered gas so I had them wire it for electric and swapping cooktops was one of the first things I did after I moved in.

netmonk 4y ago

Asthma has nothing to do with gas or kitchen air. But let’s continue to brainwash for money and FUD. http://www.asthma-reality.com http://www.asthma-reality.com

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