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I was just in Lisbon yesterday. I recommend the Lisbon Winery for a lesson in port wine and great food. It’s a nice city, the level of English is high, but it’s

I was just in Lisbon yesterday. I recommend the Lisbon Winery for a lesson in port wine and great food. It’s a nice city, the level of English is high, but it’s not as modern as other European cities. Plus, who wants a horde of cryptobros anyway? What “innovative” about tulipomaniacs? As for Airbnb, that’s the same is most touristy cities and it’s not just because of nomads.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
> As for Airbnb, that’s the same is most touristy cities and it’s not just because of nomads. Cities should be for citizens... tourists belong in hotels.
- thefounder 4y ago
  What if the citizens want to make an extra buck renting their property?
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    There's a difference between (long-term) renting and airbnb. Just ask the neighbours, who normally don't care about long-term renters and complain a lot about ever-changing tourists and all the issues that brings (from safety to loud parties). You cannot have a factory in the middle of a residential zone, why can you have (what is effectively a single room) hotel?
    - rcruzeiro 4y ago
      I lived from 2014 to 2016 in a really cosy flat with a sloped ceiling in downtown Lisbon. I literally moved away from there solely because the unit beneath mine turned into an AirBnb rental and there were constant loud parties all night long pretty much every other day. Not to mention people leaving the building door open, the rapid degradation of the stairwell with all the tourists dragging their suitcases (and the fact that the parties often extended to the stairwell).
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Simple, tax their short term Airbnb rental side hustle until they have second thoughts about this and maybe then they rent it instead to a long term tenant who actually needs it like a local student or worker.
    - DoingIsLearning 4y ago
      The main aspect of Airbnb being attractive in Portugal is that rental laws are very biased to tenants. It is quite literally almost impossible to evict. Also in general civil court cases are backlogged for years. Airbnb will probably feel like neo-liberal haven for these landlords.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - dysoco 4y ago
    The problem is when housing prices are at an all time high and it's almost impossible to find somewhere to rent, even with money in your pocket, because the landlord decided it's much more profitable to do weekly air-bnbs to tourists.
    - simplotek 4y ago
      > The problem is when housing prices are at an all time high and it's almost impossible to find somewhere to rent, even with money in your pocket (...) I have to call bullshit on this one. A few years ago I moved to a different country and I had an awful time trying to find an apartment to rent. Between awfully expensive flats and squalors, I was forced to extend my stay at an hotel for an additional month. This all ended when I managed to land a flat in a airbnb-like service. It was cheaper than half the apartments I visited at the time, and right in the city center. I spent over a month in that apartment and eventually landed a decent long-term rental, but if it wasn't for the airbnb-like service either I would be forced to burn through cash to stay at hotels or settle with being exploited by abusive landlords. Midway through I even considered just sticking with the airbnb-like service even though I'd risk being out-booked. Perhaps people like you could spend a minute thinking things through and consider why there is demand for offers somewhere between hotels and long-term rentals, which frequently are completely out of reach of those who have to move to a new city in a short notice.
      - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        There would be a lot more long-term rentals available if there was no airbnb (because airbnb is the reason that you were unable to find a long-er term rental in the first place). Limit the rentals to 1 month (or 2) minimum and you have all the bases covered.
        avmich 4y ago
        How come in so many markets suppliers seek the demand and glad to have it, but in real estate market instead of cheerfully increasing the supply there are complaints, proposal to limit and in general offers to do something unusual where the goal could seemingly be achieved by more housing...
  - spookie 4y ago
    It's impossible to pay rent in Lisbon while earning median salary as one person (855€ average rent for 1 bedroom apartment vs 1200€ median salary). At this point, there's no reason for anyone new to go live there.
    - siquick 4y ago
      My partner and I moved to Lisbon about 6 years ago. We lasted 3 months after it became clear that the rent was more expensive than what we had just been paying in Sydney.
    - garbagecoder 4y ago
      I love how this HN thread immediately turned against tourists and ignored the impact of the cryptobros.
      - nibbleshifter 4y ago
        There are a lot of tourists, and a comparatively tiny number of "crypto bros". When it comes to shit like Airbnb, etc, in cities such as Lisbon, the "crypto bros" are less than a fraction of a percent.
  - paranoidrobot 4y ago
    The idea we were sold: Rent your spare room, Rent out your whole place while you're away. The reality: Capital-rich folks buy up properties purely to run AirBNBs. Almost all of the benefits go to the owners. Almost all of the downsides go to the neighbours, suburbs and others who are competing to rent/own there.
  - vineyardmike 4y ago
    There is a reason to have tourists in hotels beyond government control and taxation. But not everything in life has to be centered around a desire to profit. Usage patterns and resource usage of residents and tourists are not equal. Tourists tend to need less space (since they just sleep there) and tend to be noisier (since they don't usually have a worker's schedule, and/or may be loud while vacationing). They tend to have different transit usage from locals, and they tend to travel to different parts of the city. All of this causes un-even wear on the resources and infrastructure within the city.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

> As for Airbnb, that’s the same is most touristy cities and it’s not just because of nomads. Cities should be for citizens... tourists belong in hotels.

thefounder 4y ago
What if the citizens want to make an extra buck renting their property?
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  There's a difference between (long-term) renting and airbnb. Just ask the neighbours, who normally don't care about long-term renters and complain a lot about ever-changing tourists and all the issues that brings (from safety to loud parties). You cannot have a factory in the middle of a residential zone, why can you have (what is effectively a single room) hotel?
  - rcruzeiro 4y ago
    I lived from 2014 to 2016 in a really cosy flat with a sloped ceiling in downtown Lisbon. I literally moved away from there solely because the unit beneath mine turned into an AirBnb rental and there were constant loud parties all night long pretty much every other day. Not to mention people leaving the building door open, the rapid degradation of the stairwell with all the tourists dragging their suitcases (and the fact that the parties often extended to the stairwell).
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Simple, tax their short term Airbnb rental side hustle until they have second thoughts about this and maybe then they rent it instead to a long term tenant who actually needs it like a local student or worker.
  - DoingIsLearning 4y ago
    The main aspect of Airbnb being attractive in Portugal is that rental laws are very biased to tenants. It is quite literally almost impossible to evict. Also in general civil court cases are backlogged for years. Airbnb will probably feel like neo-liberal haven for these landlords.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dysoco 4y ago
  The problem is when housing prices are at an all time high and it's almost impossible to find somewhere to rent, even with money in your pocket, because the landlord decided it's much more profitable to do weekly air-bnbs to tourists.
  - simplotek 4y ago
    > The problem is when housing prices are at an all time high and it's almost impossible to find somewhere to rent, even with money in your pocket (...) I have to call bullshit on this one. A few years ago I moved to a different country and I had an awful time trying to find an apartment to rent. Between awfully expensive flats and squalors, I was forced to extend my stay at an hotel for an additional month. This all ended when I managed to land a flat in a airbnb-like service. It was cheaper than half the apartments I visited at the time, and right in the city center. I spent over a month in that apartment and eventually landed a decent long-term rental, but if it wasn't for the airbnb-like service either I would be forced to burn through cash to stay at hotels or settle with being exploited by abusive landlords. Midway through I even considered just sticking with the airbnb-like service even though I'd risk being out-booked. Perhaps people like you could spend a minute thinking things through and consider why there is demand for offers somewhere between hotels and long-term rentals, which frequently are completely out of reach of those who have to move to a new city in a short notice.
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      There would be a lot more long-term rentals available if there was no airbnb (because airbnb is the reason that you were unable to find a long-er term rental in the first place). Limit the rentals to 1 month (or 2) minimum and you have all the bases covered.
      - avmich 4y ago
        How come in so many markets suppliers seek the demand and glad to have it, but in real estate market instead of cheerfully increasing the supply there are complaints, proposal to limit and in general offers to do something unusual where the goal could seemingly be achieved by more housing...
- spookie 4y ago
  It's impossible to pay rent in Lisbon while earning median salary as one person (855€ average rent for 1 bedroom apartment vs 1200€ median salary). At this point, there's no reason for anyone new to go live there.
  - siquick 4y ago
    My partner and I moved to Lisbon about 6 years ago. We lasted 3 months after it became clear that the rent was more expensive than what we had just been paying in Sydney.
  - garbagecoder 4y ago
    I love how this HN thread immediately turned against tourists and ignored the impact of the cryptobros.
    - nibbleshifter 4y ago
      There are a lot of tourists, and a comparatively tiny number of "crypto bros". When it comes to shit like Airbnb, etc, in cities such as Lisbon, the "crypto bros" are less than a fraction of a percent.
- paranoidrobot 4y ago
  The idea we were sold: Rent your spare room, Rent out your whole place while you're away. The reality: Capital-rich folks buy up properties purely to run AirBNBs. Almost all of the benefits go to the owners. Almost all of the downsides go to the neighbours, suburbs and others who are competing to rent/own there.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  There is a reason to have tourists in hotels beyond government control and taxation. But not everything in life has to be centered around a desire to profit. Usage patterns and resource usage of residents and tourists are not equal. Tourists tend to need less space (since they just sleep there) and tend to be noisier (since they don't usually have a worker's schedule, and/or may be loud while vacationing). They tend to have different transit usage from locals, and they tend to travel to different parts of the city. All of this causes un-even wear on the resources and infrastructure within the city.