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It makes me sad that many people will use this as an opportunity to write off Buddhist practices. Please don't! It has personally helped me greatly. Just rememb

It makes me sad that many people will use this as an opportunity to write off Buddhist practices. Please don't! It has personally helped me greatly. Just remember: 1. The goal is to end suffering, so if a practice is making you suffer stop doing it. 2. Do what works for you. The only truth is what you can directly experience in the laboratory of your life. All the other teachings are just suggestions. And if you'd like a concise overview of Theravada Buddhism (which is somewhat easier to grok without the added teachings of Mahayana, Vajrayana, Zen, etc.) I highly recommend [1] and [2], the second of which can be read in a day or two. [1]: https://a.co/d/iiAtDs5 https://a.co/d/iiAtDs5 [2]: https://a.co/d/asUIQUR https://a.co/d/asUIQUR

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ShamelessC 4y ago
Anyone who benefits positively from Buddhist practices will be unperturbed by this article (as you seem to be). That's fine; but suggesting that _everyone_ give it a chance; even in the face of (frankly valid) criticism, is toxic in my opinion.
- bitforger 4y ago
  May you and all readers be well, happy, and healthy. :)
  - ShamelessC 4y ago
    Thanks! Not sure how that's relevant, as toxicity does not cancel out in this fashion. Appreciate it in any case.
Narretz 4y ago
That's not what I got from the article at all. I got that Bhuddism is vastly more complex than I've realized, and that there's good and bad parts about it, and the author himself gives pointers on teachings/directions that he likes.
prisonality 4y ago
> 1. The goal is to end suffering, so if a practice is making you suffer stop doing it. That's correct: the goal is to end suffering - by means of understanding it. Thus the understanding is important to distinguish there's indeed suffering that leads to the end of suffering -- like Ajahn Chah using analogy of going to the dentist (in itself is a suffering) to end the suffering of dental pain.
- bitforger 4y ago
  I've been curious about this in my own practice, but I haven't yet been able to find an example of increasing suffering as having a positive impact on my insight. Do you remember the book or teaching that that analogy came from? Ajan Chah comes highly recommended from others as well. Edit: oh I guess the exception is clinging to the Dhamma, like the sutta about the raft.
peatfreak 4y ago
> It makes me sad that many people will use this as an opportunity to write off Buddhist practices. This would be a huge misunderstanding of the article. I read the whole article, and I found it to be positively re-affirming of Buddhism. Unfortunately the submission title is potentially misleading and possibly even clickbaity. It's a very good article. I've read many critiques of Western Buddhism and they can mostly get a bit samey after a while. However -- after the first few paragraphs, which are admittedly pretty run-of-the-mill -- this article elevates itself to a much more interesting level. It also raises solutions, anecdotes, and references that go way beyond what you normally hear.
- bitforger 4y ago
  Yes, I hope that most readers take away this sentiment as well. I will say that some of Sasha's criticisms don't vibe well with my understanding, though. For example, we don't renounce pleasure because Buddha tells us we should, but because we directly observe that clinging to desire inherently feels bad. Our subconscious mind, when confronted with this info, naturally drops the object like a hot coal. Telling newbies that traditional Buddhism is about giving up everything that makes you happy is a mischaracterization imo. I also think his understanding of clinging is more narrow than what's described in the Abhidhamma. The interludes of TMI[1] give a pretty approachable introduction to this model of conscious experience. [1]: https://a.co/d/04tc3dJ https://a.co/d/04tc3dJ
- emptysongglass 4y ago
  I disagree that it's a very good article or even a good article. Its conclusions stand in stark contrast to the fundamentals of Buddhist practice. It's message is confusion from an author who is not accomplished in practice but writes eloquently. I think it's unfortunate its gone to the front-page because it makes a mess of the dharma and communicates Buddhism as a mass of contradictions. People will latch on to anything that confirms their biases without practicing and seeing for themselves what it really is. I encourage more people to go out and practice the way we have the teachings preserved not in Zen, not in Tibetan but early Buddhism, where we're closest to the teacher. Start there, practice ethics first, then move on to stability of mind, then real insight practice always with an eye to, "is this thing improving my relationships to myself and others?" If it doesn't, if you become more egoic, more like Sasha, abandon it, seek help. Do not declare enlightenment, do not foster a following of people who will then spread your confusion to the four corners of the earth.
wnolens 4y ago
> 1. The goal is to end suffering, so if a practice is making you suffer stop doing it. Cool, so I just walk away from anything causing me stress? *leaves wife and kids*. Thanks, Buddhism!
- npteljes 4y ago
  Imagine that while studying Buddhism a new way appears: detaching pain and suffering. So for you to stop suffering, you won't need to walk away.
  - wnolens 4y ago
    Detachment from feeling pain? I believe this is a common symptom of PTSD. Another hot tip from Buddhism in this thread.
    - blep_ 4y ago
      And a few other mental disorders, yeah. "Depersonalization" is the relevant search term. This was the real "sudden insight" I got from trying meditation off and on for a few years: that the complete detachment they try to achieve and the complete detachment I've been feeling for most of my life are the same thing. The only difference is they did it on purpose. I have been enlightened, and it is the biggest source of suffering in my life.
    - npteljes 4y ago
      Not detachment from pain, you misunderstand. You will feel all the pain just the same. It's just that pain won't imply the same amount of suffering, as you experienced before. In this context, pain is what you feel, suffering is what you make of it. What you are reminded of, regarding ptsd and detachment, is called dissociation (in psychology). It's an unhealthy, but working, coping mechanism for something that a mind decides it cannot face. A major difference with the detachment I'm trying to explain is that the Buddhist / stoic practice is conscious, but dissociation is unconscious.
nico 4y ago
> Do what works for you. The only truth is what you can directly experience in the laboratory of your life. All the other teachings are just suggestions. We should all follow this, and also use it as a basis for being more kind to others - what worked for us might not necessarily work for others, let’s be less judgemental and more understanding.
aidenn0 4y ago
> 1. The goal is to end suffering, so if a practice is making you suffer stop doing it. That's a non-sequitor. Following this advice will lead you into a local-minimum of suffering at best.
- wnolens 4y ago
  And at worst you will constantly be walking away from any pain (which is just a signal you need to change)
fancybouncy 4y ago
the goal is to end suffering if you believe that suicide won't work because you'll just get reincarnated. their real goal is to end reincarnation. if you don't believe in reincarnation, buddhism is useless.
GaryPalmer 4y ago
Criticising Buddhism has it's place but the average westerner is not at a level where it's appropriate to do it. 99% of people need more buddhism, not less.
mckravchyk 4y ago
> The goal is to end suffering, so if a practice is making you suffer stop doing it. That would run counter to what Zen practice is about. Suffering can be, among other things, an unconscious experience of pain. If the practice brings pain, whether physical or psychological, the way to deal with that is to continue with the practice and be unshaken by whatever comes, just staying with the practice (i.e. counting, or staying watchful) - while avoiding a desire to be in a better state or questioning the current state, just keeping on doing it under a firm belief that it will lead to an improvement in the long term (and not necessarily right now). Doing so leads to a development of an internal balance, sort of a way to operate beyond thoughts and emotions, which allows to blow away unnecessary mental clutter that contributes to suffering here and there on an ongoing basis, as well as having more mental strength to deal with unpleasant things in life with less suffering.
- bitforger 4y ago
  I think we are mostly on the same page. Pain and suffering are different things, and often fully embracing pain and letting go of aversion decreases the amount of suffering in that moment. So yes, it's very important that practice is motivated by wise consideration of the true nature of suffering, and perhaps I should have qualified that. However, given that qualification, I still believe that practice should be a smooth descent of the gradient of suffering. You may increase your conscious awareness of pain or unwholesome states, but you should always feel less suffering after you do that. This is because letting go to the reality of the present moment is the opposite of clinging. So you should always feel better* when you practice than when you don't. I will admit, though, that perhaps my perspective is colored by my experience and this is not true for all people. *by feeling better we mean less suffering (dukkha), not more pleasure and less pain
kar5pt 4y ago
> Do what works for you. The only truth is what you can directly experience in the laboratory of your life. All the other teachings are just suggestions. This is just your own opinion at this point. It's not buddhism. Buddhism has specific teachings that it posits as being true, regardless of whether you've personally experienced them.
- bitforger 4y ago
  yes

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ShamelessC 4y ago

Anyone who benefits positively from Buddhist practices will be unperturbed by this article (as you seem to be). That's fine; but suggesting that _everyone_ give it a chance; even in the face of (frankly valid) criticism, is toxic in my opinion.

bitforger 4y ago
May you and all readers be well, happy, and healthy. :)
- ShamelessC 4y ago
  Thanks! Not sure how that's relevant, as toxicity does not cancel out in this fashion. Appreciate it in any case.

Narretz 4y ago

That's not what I got from the article at all. I got that Bhuddism is vastly more complex than I've realized, and that there's good and bad parts about it, and the author himself gives pointers on teachings/directions that he likes.

prisonality 4y ago

> 1. The goal is to end suffering, so if a practice is making you suffer stop doing it. That's correct: the goal is to end suffering - by means of understanding it. Thus the understanding is important to distinguish there's indeed suffering that leads to the end of suffering -- like Ajahn Chah using analogy of going to the dentist (in itself is a suffering) to end the suffering of dental pain.

bitforger 4y ago
I've been curious about this in my own practice, but I haven't yet been able to find an example of increasing suffering as having a positive impact on my insight. Do you remember the book or teaching that that analogy came from? Ajan Chah comes highly recommended from others as well. Edit: oh I guess the exception is clinging to the Dhamma, like the sutta about the raft.

peatfreak 4y ago

> It makes me sad that many people will use this as an opportunity to write off Buddhist practices. This would be a huge misunderstanding of the article. I read the whole article, and I found it to be positively re-affirming of Buddhism. Unfortunately the submission title is potentially misleading and possibly even clickbaity. It's a very good article. I've read many critiques of Western Buddhism and they can mostly get a bit samey after a while. However -- after the first few paragraphs, which are admittedly pretty run-of-the-mill -- this article elevates itself to a much more interesting level. It also raises solutions, anecdotes, and references that go way beyond what you normally hear.

bitforger 4y ago
Yes, I hope that most readers take away this sentiment as well. I will say that some of Sasha's criticisms don't vibe well with my understanding, though. For example, we don't renounce pleasure because Buddha tells us we should, but because we directly observe that clinging to desire inherently feels bad. Our subconscious mind, when confronted with this info, naturally drops the object like a hot coal. Telling newbies that traditional Buddhism is about giving up everything that makes you happy is a mischaracterization imo. I also think his understanding of clinging is more narrow than what's described in the Abhidhamma. The interludes of TMI[1] give a pretty approachable introduction to this model of conscious experience. [1]: https://a.co/d/04tc3dJ https://a.co/d/04tc3dJ
emptysongglass 4y ago
I disagree that it's a very good article or even a good article. Its conclusions stand in stark contrast to the fundamentals of Buddhist practice. It's message is confusion from an author who is not accomplished in practice but writes eloquently. I think it's unfortunate its gone to the front-page because it makes a mess of the dharma and communicates Buddhism as a mass of contradictions. People will latch on to anything that confirms their biases without practicing and seeing for themselves what it really is. I encourage more people to go out and practice the way we have the teachings preserved not in Zen, not in Tibetan but early Buddhism, where we're closest to the teacher. Start there, practice ethics first, then move on to stability of mind, then real insight practice always with an eye to, "is this thing improving my relationships to myself and others?" If it doesn't, if you become more egoic, more like Sasha, abandon it, seek help. Do not declare enlightenment, do not foster a following of people who will then spread your confusion to the four corners of the earth.

wnolens 4y ago

> 1. The goal is to end suffering, so if a practice is making you suffer stop doing it. Cool, so I just walk away from anything causing me stress? *leaves wife and kids*. Thanks, Buddhism!

npteljes 4y ago
Imagine that while studying Buddhism a new way appears: detaching pain and suffering. So for you to stop suffering, you won't need to walk away.
- wnolens 4y ago
  Detachment from feeling pain? I believe this is a common symptom of PTSD. Another hot tip from Buddhism in this thread.
  - blep_ 4y ago
    And a few other mental disorders, yeah. "Depersonalization" is the relevant search term. This was the real "sudden insight" I got from trying meditation off and on for a few years: that the complete detachment they try to achieve and the complete detachment I've been feeling for most of my life are the same thing. The only difference is they did it on purpose. I have been enlightened, and it is the biggest source of suffering in my life.
  - npteljes 4y ago
    Not detachment from pain, you misunderstand. You will feel all the pain just the same. It's just that pain won't imply the same amount of suffering, as you experienced before. In this context, pain is what you feel, suffering is what you make of it. What you are reminded of, regarding ptsd and detachment, is called dissociation (in psychology). It's an unhealthy, but working, coping mechanism for something that a mind decides it cannot face. A major difference with the detachment I'm trying to explain is that the Buddhist / stoic practice is conscious, but dissociation is unconscious.

nico 4y ago

> Do what works for you. The only truth is what you can directly experience in the laboratory of your life. All the other teachings are just suggestions. We should all follow this, and also use it as a basis for being more kind to others - what worked for us might not necessarily work for others, let’s be less judgemental and more understanding.

aidenn0 4y ago

> 1. The goal is to end suffering, so if a practice is making you suffer stop doing it. That's a non-sequitor. Following this advice will lead you into a local-minimum of suffering at best.

wnolens 4y ago
And at worst you will constantly be walking away from any pain (which is just a signal you need to change)

fancybouncy 4y ago

the goal is to end suffering if you believe that suicide won't work because you'll just get reincarnated. their real goal is to end reincarnation. if you don't believe in reincarnation, buddhism is useless.

GaryPalmer 4y ago

Criticising Buddhism has it's place but the average westerner is not at a level where it's appropriate to do it. 99% of people need more buddhism, not less.

mckravchyk 4y ago

> The goal is to end suffering, so if a practice is making you suffer stop doing it. That would run counter to what Zen practice is about. Suffering can be, among other things, an unconscious experience of pain. If the practice brings pain, whether physical or psychological, the way to deal with that is to continue with the practice and be unshaken by whatever comes, just staying with the practice (i.e. counting, or staying watchful) - while avoiding a desire to be in a better state or questioning the current state, just keeping on doing it under a firm belief that it will lead to an improvement in the long term (and not necessarily right now). Doing so leads to a development of an internal balance, sort of a way to operate beyond thoughts and emotions, which allows to blow away unnecessary mental clutter that contributes to suffering here and there on an ongoing basis, as well as having more mental strength to deal with unpleasant things in life with less suffering.

bitforger 4y ago
I think we are mostly on the same page. Pain and suffering are different things, and often fully embracing pain and letting go of aversion decreases the amount of suffering in that moment. So yes, it's very important that practice is motivated by wise consideration of the true nature of suffering, and perhaps I should have qualified that. However, given that qualification, I still believe that practice should be a smooth descent of the gradient of suffering. You may increase your conscious awareness of pain or unwholesome states, but you should always feel less suffering after you do that. This is because letting go to the reality of the present moment is the opposite of clinging. So you should always feel better* when you practice than when you don't. I will admit, though, that perhaps my perspective is colored by my experience and this is not true for all people. *by feeling better we mean less suffering (dukkha), not more pleasure and less pain

kar5pt 4y ago

> Do what works for you. The only truth is what you can directly experience in the laboratory of your life. All the other teachings are just suggestions. This is just your own opinion at this point. It's not buddhism. Buddhism has specific teachings that it posits as being true, regardless of whether you've personally experienced them.

bitforger 4y ago
yes