6 ms·

“Certainly” not, as it’s against the law

by Lewton 4y ago

moritzwarhier 4y ago
I know stores for sure that have cameras facing the street (at least I assume from the position of the entrance which is to observe). I think there is a law regulating where and if such a camera is allowed to be positioned and how you are allowed to process the imagery. It is also not forbidden to film out of my doorway, is it? Law is certainly complex in this case. Storing close-up videos of strangers indefinitely is hopefully forbidden, but not filming a street per se.
- luckylion 4y ago
  > It is also not forbidden to film out of my doorway, is it? It is if you're looking at the public road out of your door. Cameras need to be angled so that they do not film public spaces. There was a case a few years back about police stations in Baden-Württemberg needing to shut down their cameras because one complaint found them to surveil too much of the sidewalk.
  - moritzwarhier 4y ago
    Thanks to both of you for correcting my misconception. Privacy law can become pretty complicated.
  - noduerme 4y ago
    Very interesting. This would inhibit an enormous number of private security cameras if implemented in the US, particularly in cities without much of a setback from the building to the sidewalk. Is there an exception for ATMs? [edit] just to clarify, I said "certainly" because the idea of public space being unsurveilled is such a foreign concept to me these days. I do think there are valid safety use cases for private cameras on the street - cash machines being high on my list. Government cameras (or those accessible by government without a warrant) I think should require a much higher standard to be met. But for private use, for instance, my front door camera covers the area of sidewalk directly in front of my house. Where I live, I am liable for accidents that occur on that piece of sidewalk and the curb, should I not shovel my snow or someone slips on autumn leaves or if a tree limb falls on someone's car. I don't like the idea of the police accessing that camera, but I do like the idea of having a record of what takes place in a public area I'm personally liable for maintaining.
    - luckylion 4y ago
      I'm not sure about ATMs, many banks in Germany have them inside a foyer you access with your cards. I assume outside ATMs a) angle cameras upwards so they film the person in front of it but will hardly capture someone that's walking by half a meter behind them, b) only film during a transaction, and aren't "surveilling" the area by being always-on. I don't know though. In Germany, you're also partially liable for accidents that happen due to side-walk maintenance (which is a stupid idea imho because many people just don't care, so you end up with lots of icy sidewalks in winter). But Germany is generally cheap on damages, so if someone falls in front of your house and breaks their wrist and cannot work fully, you'd pay a few thousand Euros at most. Since you'd need to actually prove damages in court, and would need to actually break your bones etc, I haven't heard of scams in that regard. Might happen occasionally, but it's not a common thing.
- jacooper 4y ago
  > It is also not forbidden to film out of my doorway, is it? AFAIK, smart doorbell like Ring have breached UK private laws/GDPR https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/14/amazon-asks-ring-owners-to-respect-privacy-after-court-rules-usage-broke-law https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/14/amazon-asks-...
- pragmatick 4y ago
  It doesn't matter if it's your door, it matters if it records public space.

“Certainly” not, as it’s against the law

by Lewton 4y ago

“Certainly” not, as it’s against the law

I know stores for sure that have cameras facing the street (at least I assume from the position of the entrance which is to observe). I think there is a law regulating where and if such a camera is allowed to be positioned and how you are allowed to process the imagery. It is also not forbidden to film out of my doorway, is it? Law is certainly complex in this case. Storing close-up videos of strangers indefinitely is hopefully forbidden, but not filming a street per se.

luckylion 4y ago
> It is also not forbidden to film out of my doorway, is it? It is if you're looking at the public road out of your door. Cameras need to be angled so that they do not film public spaces. There was a case a few years back about police stations in Baden-Württemberg needing to shut down their cameras because one complaint found them to surveil too much of the sidewalk.
- moritzwarhier 4y ago
  Thanks to both of you for correcting my misconception. Privacy law can become pretty complicated.
- noduerme 4y ago
  Very interesting. This would inhibit an enormous number of private security cameras if implemented in the US, particularly in cities without much of a setback from the building to the sidewalk. Is there an exception for ATMs? [edit] just to clarify, I said "certainly" because the idea of public space being unsurveilled is such a foreign concept to me these days. I do think there are valid safety use cases for private cameras on the street - cash machines being high on my list. Government cameras (or those accessible by government without a warrant) I think should require a much higher standard to be met. But for private use, for instance, my front door camera covers the area of sidewalk directly in front of my house. Where I live, I am liable for accidents that occur on that piece of sidewalk and the curb, should I not shovel my snow or someone slips on autumn leaves or if a tree limb falls on someone's car. I don't like the idea of the police accessing that camera, but I do like the idea of having a record of what takes place in a public area I'm personally liable for maintaining.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    I'm not sure about ATMs, many banks in Germany have them inside a foyer you access with your cards. I assume outside ATMs a) angle cameras upwards so they film the person in front of it but will hardly capture someone that's walking by half a meter behind them, b) only film during a transaction, and aren't "surveilling" the area by being always-on. I don't know though. In Germany, you're also partially liable for accidents that happen due to side-walk maintenance (which is a stupid idea imho because many people just don't care, so you end up with lots of icy sidewalks in winter). But Germany is generally cheap on damages, so if someone falls in front of your house and breaks their wrist and cannot work fully, you'd pay a few thousand Euros at most. Since you'd need to actually prove damages in court, and would need to actually break your bones etc, I haven't heard of scams in that regard. Might happen occasionally, but it's not a common thing.
jacooper 4y ago
> It is also not forbidden to film out of my doorway, is it? AFAIK, smart doorbell like Ring have breached UK private laws/GDPR https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/14/amazon-asks-ring-owners-to-respect-privacy-after-court-rules-usage-broke-law https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/14/amazon-asks-...
pragmatick 4y ago
It doesn't matter if it's your door, it matters if it records public space.