9 ms·

I love using Elixir but I also like to think "right tool for the job" and imho Elixir is generally not the right tool for the job for command-line user interfac

by lycos 4y ago

I love using Elixir but I also like to think "right tool for the job" and imho Elixir is generally not the right tool for the job for command-line user interfaces. It's fun to experiment with though, of course. Having said all of that that, something like this might be useful when writing custom Mix tasks inside Elixir projects!

Existenceblinks 4y ago
I wonder which one is currently the king (include all arbitrary metrics you can think of)? I guess 1.Go 2.Rust
- RexM 4y ago
  Bash?
  - c0balt 4y ago
    Won't work on windows outside of WSL, at least that has been a reason I've heard for not using Bash for simple stuff. For complex applications bash (or shellscript in general) is also rather ill-suited as it has a lot of footguns and can be hard to maintain.
    - cglong 4y ago
      You can also use Bash in Cygwin/MSYS environments, like Git for Windows. I've been using Bash for writing cross-platform Git scripts :)
      - thesneakin 4y ago
        For decades. Bash even runs in DOS.
  - Existenceblinks 4y ago
    I have no idea if Bash has library? It's more like for managing host stuff rather than compute wide range of application.
- mgaunard 4y ago
  Python is by far the world most popular language, and is used a lot for command-line scripts.
  - sph 4y ago
    Its awful package management makes using Python for CLI applications more painful than it has a right to be. Despite this egregious shortcoming, it's popular for scripts only because it comes with a quite extensive standard library. These days I'd rather suffer through the verbosity of Go or strict memory semantics of Rust (which are no concern in most CLI applications) than write more than a dozen lines of Python. Personally, while I think the compiled world has settled onto a few very good languages, the scripting ecosystem still to this day leaves a lot to be desired.
- theobeers 4y ago
  As of last year, Meta recommends internally that CLI tools be implemented in Rust: https://engineering.fb.com/2022/07/27/developer-tools/programming-languages-endorsed-for-server-side-use-at-meta/ https://engineering.fb.com/2022/07/27/developer-tools/progra...
brightball 4y ago
One of the great things about Elixir is that it encourages you to think of your application as the code that executed the purpose of your system and everything else as an interface to it. So a web interface, an API interface, a CLI interface, etc are all treated the same way since the code doing the work isn’t tightly integrated to any of them. From that perspective, Elixir can be great for CLI.
- lycos 4y ago
  Either I don't understand what you are saying, or this is not unique to Elixir at all? Or both lol
  - brightball 4y ago
    With Elixir/Erlang the various BEAM nodes can connect and call each other so the code internally tends to reflect the same approach. The equivalent approach in most other languages would be to create a single web API and have everything talk to it via REST, etc. It’s closer to thinking of everything having an RPC interface by default I suppose.
    - dmix 4y ago
      And not all CLI tools are isolated UNIXy bins you install. It could be an interface to a larger app running on the system like a database.
  - thesneakin 4y ago
    It's not. I keep factoring my CLI scripts to something that's very MVC. Everytime.
    - SirGiggles 4y ago
      brightball is perhaps alluding that the BEAM VM environment itself is treated more as an operating system within an operating system rather than just another process in an operating system. The BEAM VM is unique (at least compared to mainstream languages) in that everything is run as a preempted, stackful coroutine. The result is an environment reminiscent of an operating system.
matlin 4y ago
Elixir is having a big push into machine learning (checkout Nx and Axon) and generally is also great for doing data streaming processing so you could imagine tools cropping up that might have it's primary interface be a CLI... this would be a great fit for those use cases.
amalgamated_inc 4y ago
I rewrote all my CLI scripts in Elixir, it's best in class IMO. With Mix.install now it's just amazing. Fast, free and simple concurrency, low startup time, great ecosystem, very good system level abstractions and functions in the stdlib.
- xcdzvyn 4y ago
  I completely agree with GP in that Elixir isn't really _designed_ for CLI tools, but I agree with you that it does happen to be great for it. I don't doubt there are some facilities it lacks that would make ones life easier, but overwhelmingly its standard library is more than sufficient.
- realitylabs 4y ago
  Are any of these published or would you share an example?
  - amalgamated_inc 4y ago
    Nothing published, they're typically not very complex. Things of interest for CLI stuff: #!/usr/bin/env elixir Use Mix.install like so Mix.install([ {:jason, "~> 1.4"}, ]) Execute shell commands {output, status_code} = System.cmd("ls", ["-la"]) For handling files and paths: Path.join/2 __ENV__.file Path.dirname/1 Path.expand/1 File.lstat/1 File.read/1 Parsing arguments argv = System.argv() OptionParser.parse(argv, [strict: [switch: :boolean], aliases: [s: :switch]]) exit({:shutdown, status_code}) # for shutting down with an error For printing colors (from docs) iex> IO.ANSI.format(["Hello, ", :red, :bright, "world!"], true)
ch4s3 4y ago
As long as you aren’t severely memory constrained or trying to do tasks that only take a few ms, it’s totally fine. It’s even desirable in a lot of cases. You can do a lot of tasks in about the time it takes python, or faster if it’s a parallelizable problem.
- ungamedplayer 4y ago
  You absolutely can strip beams memory usage if required. There are a number of applications(Erlang term) that start by default that may not be required, which can be disabled.
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    I know you can do that, but I’m not sure how much memory it saves in practice.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
rektide 4y ago
> imho Elixir is generally not the right tool for the job for command-line user interfaces why? what factors lead you to this conclusion? there's so mamy examples of low grade opinion sharing in the comments. going just a little further to say why you think something, what factoes are good or bad, can provide a real starting point where folks can learn & engage usefully, rather than just subject each other to utterly shallow opinion. another example from elsewhere: > Elixir is ill-suited to command line apps out of the box. we should have actual substance to our conversations; again, why? (my own guess is that beam vm has to get started & is mind of heavyweight... i dunno if that cost even necessarily has to be paid for each program launch or no, maybe there's some trickery to quickly start new cli processes in existing vms. just guessing, not my scene. but what would be negative factors? no one says.)
- fshr 4y ago
  I completely agree with your points about shallow comments. In a similar vein, while we’re asking for a bit more effort, I’d like to ask you to re-read what you write before posting. There are a half dozen typos and no capitalization. It helps ESL users, gives your subconscious another chance to refine your comment, and makes it easier for each reader to focus on your ideas without distraction.
- brabel 4y ago
  I have no horses in this race, but a good language for a CLI is a language that generates small binaries that use little memory and start up very fast. I can think of three languages that I would use based on that: Go, Rust and if I was feeling adventurous or wanted to be able to execute scripts, Common Lisp (it's surprisingly fast, in the same league as Rust, for small programs). Does Elixir compare positively to those in these categories? EDIT: some people on this thread say it takes 200ms just to start an Elixir program. That's three times slower than Java, which is generally not considered a good language for CLIs.
sangnoir 4y ago
> I love using Elixir but I also like to think "right tool for the job" and imho Elixir is generally not the right tool for the job for command-line user interfaces Unless you're writing a CLI utility that natively interacts with BEAM VM services without having to de/serialize JSON via a REST API first

by lycos 4y ago

Existenceblinks 4y ago

I wonder which one is currently the king (include all arbitrary metrics you can think of)? I guess 1.Go 2.Rust

RexM 4y ago
Bash?
- c0balt 4y ago
  Won't work on windows outside of WSL, at least that has been a reason I've heard for not using Bash for simple stuff. For complex applications bash (or shellscript in general) is also rather ill-suited as it has a lot of footguns and can be hard to maintain.
  - cglong 4y ago
    You can also use Bash in Cygwin/MSYS environments, like Git for Windows. I've been using Bash for writing cross-platform Git scripts :)
    - thesneakin 4y ago
      For decades. Bash even runs in DOS.
- Existenceblinks 4y ago
  I have no idea if Bash has library? It's more like for managing host stuff rather than compute wide range of application.
mgaunard 4y ago
Python is by far the world most popular language, and is used a lot for command-line scripts.
- sph 4y ago
  Its awful package management makes using Python for CLI applications more painful than it has a right to be. Despite this egregious shortcoming, it's popular for scripts only because it comes with a quite extensive standard library. These days I'd rather suffer through the verbosity of Go or strict memory semantics of Rust (which are no concern in most CLI applications) than write more than a dozen lines of Python. Personally, while I think the compiled world has settled onto a few very good languages, the scripting ecosystem still to this day leaves a lot to be desired.
theobeers 4y ago
As of last year, Meta recommends internally that CLI tools be implemented in Rust: https://engineering.fb.com/2022/07/27/developer-tools/programming-languages-endorsed-for-server-side-use-at-meta/ https://engineering.fb.com/2022/07/27/developer-tools/progra...

brightball 4y ago

One of the great things about Elixir is that it encourages you to think of your application as the code that executed the purpose of your system and everything else as an interface to it. So a web interface, an API interface, a CLI interface, etc are all treated the same way since the code doing the work isn’t tightly integrated to any of them. From that perspective, Elixir can be great for CLI.

lycos 4y ago
Either I don't understand what you are saying, or this is not unique to Elixir at all? Or both lol
- brightball 4y ago
  With Elixir/Erlang the various BEAM nodes can connect and call each other so the code internally tends to reflect the same approach. The equivalent approach in most other languages would be to create a single web API and have everything talk to it via REST, etc. It’s closer to thinking of everything having an RPC interface by default I suppose.
  - dmix 4y ago
    And not all CLI tools are isolated UNIXy bins you install. It could be an interface to a larger app running on the system like a database.
- thesneakin 4y ago
  It's not. I keep factoring my CLI scripts to something that's very MVC. Everytime.
  - SirGiggles 4y ago
    brightball is perhaps alluding that the BEAM VM environment itself is treated more as an operating system within an operating system rather than just another process in an operating system. The BEAM VM is unique (at least compared to mainstream languages) in that everything is run as a preempted, stackful coroutine. The result is an environment reminiscent of an operating system.

matlin 4y ago

Elixir is having a big push into machine learning (checkout Nx and Axon) and generally is also great for doing data streaming processing so you could imagine tools cropping up that might have it's primary interface be a CLI... this would be a great fit for those use cases.

amalgamated_inc 4y ago

I rewrote all my CLI scripts in Elixir, it's best in class IMO. With Mix.install now it's just amazing. Fast, free and simple concurrency, low startup time, great ecosystem, very good system level abstractions and functions in the stdlib.

xcdzvyn 4y ago
I completely agree with GP in that Elixir isn't really _designed_ for CLI tools, but I agree with you that it does happen to be great for it. I don't doubt there are some facilities it lacks that would make ones life easier, but overwhelmingly its standard library is more than sufficient.
realitylabs 4y ago
Are any of these published or would you share an example?
- amalgamated_inc 4y ago
  Nothing published, they're typically not very complex. Things of interest for CLI stuff: #!/usr/bin/env elixir Use Mix.install like so Mix.install([ {:jason, "~> 1.4"}, ]) Execute shell commands {output, status_code} = System.cmd("ls", ["-la"]) For handling files and paths: Path.join/2 __ENV__.file Path.dirname/1 Path.expand/1 File.lstat/1 File.read/1 Parsing arguments argv = System.argv() OptionParser.parse(argv, [strict: [switch: :boolean], aliases: [s: :switch]]) exit({:shutdown, status_code}) # for shutting down with an error For printing colors (from docs) iex> IO.ANSI.format(["Hello, ", :red, :bright, "world!"], true)

ch4s3 4y ago

As long as you aren’t severely memory constrained or trying to do tasks that only take a few ms, it’s totally fine. It’s even desirable in a lot of cases. You can do a lot of tasks in about the time it takes python, or faster if it’s a parallelizable problem.

ungamedplayer 4y ago
You absolutely can strip beams memory usage if required. There are a number of applications(Erlang term) that start by default that may not be required, which can be disabled.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  I know you can do that, but I’m not sure how much memory it saves in practice.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

rektide 4y ago

> imho Elixir is generally not the right tool for the job for command-line user interfaces why? what factors lead you to this conclusion? there's so mamy examples of low grade opinion sharing in the comments. going just a little further to say why you think something, what factoes are good or bad, can provide a real starting point where folks can learn & engage usefully, rather than just subject each other to utterly shallow opinion. another example from elsewhere: > Elixir is ill-suited to command line apps out of the box. we should have actual substance to our conversations; again, why? (my own guess is that beam vm has to get started & is mind of heavyweight... i dunno if that cost even necessarily has to be paid for each program launch or no, maybe there's some trickery to quickly start new cli processes in existing vms. just guessing, not my scene. but what would be negative factors? no one says.)

fshr 4y ago
I completely agree with your points about shallow comments. In a similar vein, while we’re asking for a bit more effort, I’d like to ask you to re-read what you write before posting. There are a half dozen typos and no capitalization. It helps ESL users, gives your subconscious another chance to refine your comment, and makes it easier for each reader to focus on your ideas without distraction.
brabel 4y ago
I have no horses in this race, but a good language for a CLI is a language that generates small binaries that use little memory and start up very fast. I can think of three languages that I would use based on that: Go, Rust and if I was feeling adventurous or wanted to be able to execute scripts, Common Lisp (it's surprisingly fast, in the same league as Rust, for small programs). Does Elixir compare positively to those in these categories? EDIT: some people on this thread say it takes 200ms just to start an Elixir program. That's three times slower than Java, which is generally not considered a good language for CLIs.

sangnoir 4y ago

> I love using Elixir but I also like to think "right tool for the job" and imho Elixir is generally not the right tool for the job for command-line user interfaces Unless you're writing a CLI utility that natively interacts with BEAM VM services without having to de/serialize JSON via a REST API first