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> Lobotomy was generally not voluntary on the part of the patient [...] curious how you feel about other forms of body modification In what sense can children

> Lobotomy was generally not voluntary on the part of the patient [...] curious how you feel about other forms of body modification In what sense can children consent to genital mutilation, since they do not understand at all human sexuality and the human sex drive, since the have had absolutely no experience with it? Virtually all other forms of body modification are also not legal for children.

antifa 4y ago
Contrary to popular hysteria, it's extraordinary rare that anyone under the age of medical consent is given what you would call "bottom surgery". As far as parents forcing children into genital mutilation, this is actually very popular and common elective medical procedure, but the word you're looking for is circumcision.
- YorkshireSeason 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - haswell 4y ago
    Murder and bank robbery are fundamentally criminal acts. There is no version of these acts that become acceptable upon reaching the age of majority. Calling out the fact that the majority of sex change operations happen at the behest of an adult who elects to have the operation is not derailing the discussion, but inserting a rather critical point of context when examining the issue broadly. That doesn't mean the concern about minors is not legitimate, but clarifies that the conversation is much broader than this subset. > Neither male nor female circumcision affects the ability to have children. Why is this relevant? I have not been mutilated, but I choose not to have children either. I haven't yet undergone a vasectomy, but plan to do so at some point in the future so I don't have to worry about it. But this seems like a non-sequitur, unless you're implying there is some moral compulsion to procreate. > Female circumcision is forbidden almost everywhere. It's estimated that ~200 million girls/women alive today have undergone FGM, and a significant number still undergo this yearly. While the practice is in decline in many places, there are countries where no such decline has started. But regardless of that, it's an orthogonal issue, and no more belongs in a conversation about sex change operations than bringing up ritual organ harvesting in a conversation about appendectomies. > Too much apologia of child abuse! Again, acknowledging that surgery is often necessary is not the equivalent of apologizing for non-consensual ritual sadism.
  - antifa 4y ago
    How is letting consenting adults make their own medical decisions "child abuse"?
- YorkshireSeason 4y ago
  "extraordinary rare" is still too much, and trivialises the issue. There is serious lobbying in place in many countries to make it happen more. As you know, the only acceptable rate is 0. One important stepping stone in getting this rate back down to 0 is to make it illegal tout court even for adult. There should not even be medical infrastructure for such mutilation. Aside, your user name here is after an organisation founded by one of world history's worst mass murderers. Can I suggest to show empathy with his victims, and not use this term? Using it trivialises his crimes.
  - antifa 4y ago
    > "extraordinary rare" is still too much I'm just being generous, I'm not technically aware of a single instance. > even for adult Is this a theocratic totalitarianism thing or a hatred for humanity and hatred of personal freedom thing?
haswell 4y ago
> In what sense can children consent to genital mutilation First, I think it’s important to draw a distinction between the practice of genital mutilation - a practice that is alive and well in various cultures and maims significant numbers of kids every year in the name of religious superstition - from sex change operations. Regardless of what you think about the appropriate age for such a decision, reducing this to “genital mutilation” trivializes the issue and tries to draw a comparison with a barbaric practice despite there being no connection between the two. Almost all forms of surgery would appear barbaric on the surface if not for the significant utility of undergoing those surgeries. That doesn’t mean we should equate cutting someone open and removing their appendix with a ritualistic religious practice that appears similar at face value. That said, I made no claims about the appropriateness of these surgeries for minors, nor do I believe someone at that age is mature enough to understand the implications of such. That doesn’t change anything that I wrote though, even if it’s an important factor to consider for a subset of potential patients.
- skfingngihg 4y ago
  There’s no difference- it all leaves kids infertile and orgasm naïve
- YorkshireSeason 4y ago
  (1) it is a sex change operation, please do not misrepresent modern genital mutilation. Sex is a biological phenomenon to do with reproduction and, simplifying a small bit: there are two sexes, male and female. A man whose genitals are mutilated does not become a women (i.e. gains the ability to give birth to children). (2) the purpose of modern genital mutilation for the mutilatee is to facilitate sex fraud, and for the mutilator is, one imagines, money. (3) if believe someone at that age is mature enough to understand the implications of modern genital mutilation, you will have to face the question why you trivialise it. Your writing here may, directly or indirectly lead to more modern genital mutilation. Speech has consequences.
SerLava 4y ago
Children don't get gender surgeries. Stop spreading misinformation

antifa 4y ago

Contrary to popular hysteria, it's extraordinary rare that anyone under the age of medical consent is given what you would call "bottom surgery". As far as parents forcing children into genital mutilation, this is actually very popular and common elective medical procedure, but the word you're looking for is circumcision.

YorkshireSeason 4y ago
[flagged]
- haswell 4y ago
  Murder and bank robbery are fundamentally criminal acts. There is no version of these acts that become acceptable upon reaching the age of majority. Calling out the fact that the majority of sex change operations happen at the behest of an adult who elects to have the operation is not derailing the discussion, but inserting a rather critical point of context when examining the issue broadly. That doesn't mean the concern about minors is not legitimate, but clarifies that the conversation is much broader than this subset. > Neither male nor female circumcision affects the ability to have children. Why is this relevant? I have not been mutilated, but I choose not to have children either. I haven't yet undergone a vasectomy, but plan to do so at some point in the future so I don't have to worry about it. But this seems like a non-sequitur, unless you're implying there is some moral compulsion to procreate. > Female circumcision is forbidden almost everywhere. It's estimated that ~200 million girls/women alive today have undergone FGM, and a significant number still undergo this yearly. While the practice is in decline in many places, there are countries where no such decline has started. But regardless of that, it's an orthogonal issue, and no more belongs in a conversation about sex change operations than bringing up ritual organ harvesting in a conversation about appendectomies. > Too much apologia of child abuse! Again, acknowledging that surgery is often necessary is not the equivalent of apologizing for non-consensual ritual sadism.
- antifa 4y ago
  How is letting consenting adults make their own medical decisions "child abuse"?
YorkshireSeason 4y ago
"extraordinary rare" is still too much, and trivialises the issue. There is serious lobbying in place in many countries to make it happen more. As you know, the only acceptable rate is 0. One important stepping stone in getting this rate back down to 0 is to make it illegal tout court even for adult. There should not even be medical infrastructure for such mutilation. Aside, your user name here is after an organisation founded by one of world history's worst mass murderers. Can I suggest to show empathy with his victims, and not use this term? Using it trivialises his crimes.
- antifa 4y ago
  > "extraordinary rare" is still too much I'm just being generous, I'm not technically aware of a single instance. > even for adult Is this a theocratic totalitarianism thing or a hatred for humanity and hatred of personal freedom thing?

haswell 4y ago

> In what sense can children consent to genital mutilation First, I think it’s important to draw a distinction between the practice of genital mutilation - a practice that is alive and well in various cultures and maims significant numbers of kids every year in the name of religious superstition - from sex change operations. Regardless of what you think about the appropriate age for such a decision, reducing this to “genital mutilation” trivializes the issue and tries to draw a comparison with a barbaric practice despite there being no connection between the two. Almost all forms of surgery would appear barbaric on the surface if not for the significant utility of undergoing those surgeries. That doesn’t mean we should equate cutting someone open and removing their appendix with a ritualistic religious practice that appears similar at face value. That said, I made no claims about the appropriateness of these surgeries for minors, nor do I believe someone at that age is mature enough to understand the implications of such. That doesn’t change anything that I wrote though, even if it’s an important factor to consider for a subset of potential patients.

skfingngihg 4y ago
There’s no difference- it all leaves kids infertile and orgasm naïve
YorkshireSeason 4y ago
(1) it is a sex change operation, please do not misrepresent modern genital mutilation. Sex is a biological phenomenon to do with reproduction and, simplifying a small bit: there are two sexes, male and female. A man whose genitals are mutilated does not become a women (i.e. gains the ability to give birth to children). (2) the purpose of modern genital mutilation for the mutilatee is to facilitate sex fraud, and for the mutilator is, one imagines, money. (3) if believe someone at that age is mature enough to understand the implications of modern genital mutilation, you will have to face the question why you trivialise it. Your writing here may, directly or indirectly lead to more modern genital mutilation. Speech has consequences.

SerLava 4y ago

Children don't get gender surgeries. Stop spreading misinformation