3 ms·

What we honestly need is to make sure all major cities have substantial public transportation infrastructure as well, so that people's incentives to drive are m

What we honestly need is to make sure all major cities have substantial public transportation infrastructure as well, so that people's incentives to drive are much lower. People need to be walking more, biking more, and taking public transportation more. I personally live in a crowded area of a fairly large city, but not a huge one. Anywhere I have to go that's within 1 mile of me, I walk. 2 miles, I bike. 3 miles or greater and within the city limits, I take the free public trolley and metro. I only drive when I absolutely need to. This mentality needs to not be limited to just me. We also as a society need to realize that urban sprawl is a really bad thing.

metacritic12 4y ago
While I like that sentiment and personally I fit into your lifestyle, I think it's worth considering the tradeoffs. Europe does the above because they have too -- their population density is huge and they historically hit the max humans / land ratio (given historic food production technology at the time). This is eminently not true for the Americas and much of Oceania. The massive amounts of land in the latter areas are probably one of a few primary factors in why there is so much sprawl there. In particular, I think many people fundamentally enjoy single family homes with a lawn, or having more space even within a city. Once you have a region (e.g. Bay Area) with enough people with single family homes, the road network has a network effect and a phase transition that suddenly favors car.
- lonelyasacloud 4y ago
  > In particular, I think many people fundamentally enjoy single family homes with a lawn, or having more space even within a city. In that case surely it's better not to fill what land we have with roads and car parks?
  - dzhiurgis 4y ago
    Other than rush hour traffic I don’t have problems with cars i suburbs - they work really well if you work from home. I am pro bike lines and public transport tho which would do nothing to my weekly drive to get groceries.
- goosedragons 4y ago
  The problem is that we've been subsidizing single family homes to an insane degree. It takes a lot more infrastructure to support single family homes vs. more dense forms of housing. You need more sewer pipe, more wiring, more sidewalks, more streets, more plowing, etc. So cities in North America have been doing this unsustainable Ponzi scheme where they pack on more debt to do all this extra maintenance.
  - metacritic12 4y ago
    I can see the subsidy in some areas, like USPS mail (which has the same retail cost all over the USA, but is definitely lowest for the government to service in cities, thus providing a nationwide subsidy to rural areas). But for items like sewer pipes, wiring, sidewalk, that seems to be serviced on a town level, so if you live in a more rural town, the property taxes per unit of house should be more. This means the above costs should be internalized pretty well.
    - goosedragons 4y ago
      But the tax bases in subdivisions AREN'T high enough to cover the maintenance costs. This causes towns to chase new development to attract more tax payers and the whole cycle repeats. There just isn't enough tax base in a subdivision to cover the maintenance burden when the time comes. You should check out the book Strong Towns.
luckylion 4y ago
I doubt that you'll get people to stop driving by simply building more public transportation, even if that was possible (it's often not because new tunnels are incredibly expensive and it's hard to fit new train lines into existing cities). A big issue with public transportation is other people. You don't have the criminally minded youth in your personal car, you don't have a homeless guy in your car, you don't have a mother on her phone while her children are crying at full volume while you're in your car. And I'm not a car-enthusiast. I don't have a car, I take my bike pretty much everywhere < 10km. But if worked in the city, I'd buy a car, even if it took longer, because I wouldn't want to ride the train each day with lots of people who haven't learned how to behave when they share space with others.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  >A big issue with public transportation is other people. You don't have the criminally minded youth in your personal car, you don't have a homeless guy in your car, you don't have a mother on her phone while her children are crying at full volume while you're in your car. I live in Tokyo, where everyone uses subways. None of these things are a problem here. >it's often not because new tunnels are incredibly expensive and it's hard to fit new train lines into existing cities) It's not hard to fit new train lines: you just build more tunnels. Even America has done this before: the DC Metro system was built mostly in the 1970s. Building new train lines is merely a matter of political will.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    > I live in Tokyo, where everyone uses subways. None of these things are a problem here. We should all move to Tokyo then! Most societies are very different from Japan, so it very much is a problem if you're trying to increase public transportation there. > Building new train lines is merely a matter of political will. Possibly, and we don't have that will. Germany's energy policy with transition to renewable is lagging / failing because we can't build new & larger interconnections between regions because some field mice might be impacted or some neighbor doesn't want their view ruined.

metacritic12 4y ago

While I like that sentiment and personally I fit into your lifestyle, I think it's worth considering the tradeoffs. Europe does the above because they have too -- their population density is huge and they historically hit the max humans / land ratio (given historic food production technology at the time). This is eminently not true for the Americas and much of Oceania. The massive amounts of land in the latter areas are probably one of a few primary factors in why there is so much sprawl there. In particular, I think many people fundamentally enjoy single family homes with a lawn, or having more space even within a city. Once you have a region (e.g. Bay Area) with enough people with single family homes, the road network has a network effect and a phase transition that suddenly favors car.

lonelyasacloud 4y ago
> In particular, I think many people fundamentally enjoy single family homes with a lawn, or having more space even within a city. In that case surely it's better not to fill what land we have with roads and car parks?
- dzhiurgis 4y ago
  Other than rush hour traffic I don’t have problems with cars i suburbs - they work really well if you work from home. I am pro bike lines and public transport tho which would do nothing to my weekly drive to get groceries.
goosedragons 4y ago
The problem is that we've been subsidizing single family homes to an insane degree. It takes a lot more infrastructure to support single family homes vs. more dense forms of housing. You need more sewer pipe, more wiring, more sidewalks, more streets, more plowing, etc. So cities in North America have been doing this unsustainable Ponzi scheme where they pack on more debt to do all this extra maintenance.
- metacritic12 4y ago
  I can see the subsidy in some areas, like USPS mail (which has the same retail cost all over the USA, but is definitely lowest for the government to service in cities, thus providing a nationwide subsidy to rural areas). But for items like sewer pipes, wiring, sidewalk, that seems to be serviced on a town level, so if you live in a more rural town, the property taxes per unit of house should be more. This means the above costs should be internalized pretty well.
  - goosedragons 4y ago
    But the tax bases in subdivisions AREN'T high enough to cover the maintenance costs. This causes towns to chase new development to attract more tax payers and the whole cycle repeats. There just isn't enough tax base in a subdivision to cover the maintenance burden when the time comes. You should check out the book Strong Towns.

luckylion 4y ago

I doubt that you'll get people to stop driving by simply building more public transportation, even if that was possible (it's often not because new tunnels are incredibly expensive and it's hard to fit new train lines into existing cities). A big issue with public transportation is other people. You don't have the criminally minded youth in your personal car, you don't have a homeless guy in your car, you don't have a mother on her phone while her children are crying at full volume while you're in your car. And I'm not a car-enthusiast. I don't have a car, I take my bike pretty much everywhere < 10km. But if worked in the city, I'd buy a car, even if it took longer, because I wouldn't want to ride the train each day with lots of people who haven't learned how to behave when they share space with others.

midoridensha 4y ago
>A big issue with public transportation is other people. You don't have the criminally minded youth in your personal car, you don't have a homeless guy in your car, you don't have a mother on her phone while her children are crying at full volume while you're in your car. I live in Tokyo, where everyone uses subways. None of these things are a problem here. >it's often not because new tunnels are incredibly expensive and it's hard to fit new train lines into existing cities) It's not hard to fit new train lines: you just build more tunnels. Even America has done this before: the DC Metro system was built mostly in the 1970s. Building new train lines is merely a matter of political will.
- luckylion 4y ago
  > I live in Tokyo, where everyone uses subways. None of these things are a problem here. We should all move to Tokyo then! Most societies are very different from Japan, so it very much is a problem if you're trying to increase public transportation there. > Building new train lines is merely a matter of political will. Possibly, and we don't have that will. Germany's energy policy with transition to renewable is lagging / failing because we can't build new & larger interconnections between regions because some field mice might be impacted or some neighbor doesn't want their view ruined.