4 ms·

In Europe she would be likely be dead or in protective custody. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10655679/Teacher-30-hiding-fleeing-showing-pupils-cart

by tyho 4y ago

In Europe she would be likely be dead or in protective custody. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10655679/Teacher-30-hiding-fleeing-showing-pupils-cartoon-Prophet-Mohammed.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10655679/Teacher-30... https://www.france24.com/en/france/20211015-the-violence-shook-me-profoundly-teachers-students-remember-samuel-paty-s-murder https://www.france24.com/en/france/20211015-the-violence-sho...

thuridas 4y ago
The response from a caricature vs a respectful historical depiction may be very different. Remember that in US this happened not a long time ago: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabbing_of_Salman_Rushdie https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabbing_of_Salman_Rushdie
- joenot443 4y ago
  It's incredibly sad seeing Shia extremism making its way to North America. This was only a few months ago too. What's even scarier about this case was that the Iranian government issued a fatwa on the victim in 1989, and then Iranian state media celebrated the attack 30 years later.
  - rippercushions 4y ago
    Oddly enough, Shias are much more tolerant of depictions of Muhammed, it's the hardline Sunni who really have a problem with it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad#Contemporary_Iran https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad#Conte...
- toxik 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - viraptor 4y ago
    This contradicts the more nuanced explanation from the article. Did you mean to disagree with it?
  - cactusplant7374 4y ago
    But not according to the Quran. There are two masters.
  - kergonath 4y ago
    > According to Islam According to a perverted, fundamentalist view of Islam. Islam is much more diverse than Iran and Saudi Arabia. The fact that they manage to impose their sectarian practices as standard Islam in much of the world is very problematic.
    - rowtheway 4y ago
      This optimistic view of the Islamic world is, sadly, inaccurate. For example, as of 2013, an overwhelming majority of Muslims wish to make Sharia the law of the land: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-m...
      - defrost 4y ago
        This pessimistic view of Islam is equally inaccurate. From your own link: > In most regions, fewer favor other specific aspects of sharia, such as cutting off the hands of thieves and executing people who convert from Islam to another faith. Just as most Christians believe that Christian values should guide the law of the land they live in and just as most Christians don't support setting bears on children that mock priests.
        rowtheway 4y ago
        >and just as most Christians don't support setting bears on children that mock priests. I’m not Christian (anymore) but I’m pretty sure this isn’t a thing in canon law. In contrast, the major strains of Islam are refreshingly clear in their treatment of apostates and unbelievers. Even a “kinder, gentler” interpretation retains the seeds of this dogma unless it rejects the Quran, which Islam holds to be the literal word of God. If you don’t hold with that, you’re not Muslim by definition.
  - jnovek 4y ago
    To clarify, are you comparing Muslims who see depictions of Muhammad as sacrilegious to rabid dogs?
    - recuter 4y ago
      To clarify, you should hear how they talk about you amongst themselves.
    - toxik 4y ago
      What else do you call a group of people willing to behead innocent teachers and murder of 12 people at Charlie Hebdo?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - dang 4y ago
    Religious flamewar and slurs ("a rabid dog") will get you banned here. Please don't post like this to HN, regardless of which group you have a problem with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
viraptor 4y ago
"In Europe" often doesn't makes sense as a generalisation. Both the UK and France have a significant Muslim population. That does not extend to Europe in general though. France is ~6% Muslim with large communities. Poland is well <0.1% with anti-islam ideas being common.
- orangetuba 4y ago
  They have very large representations compared to every other major non-christian religion in european countries. Islam is also the fastest growing religion in the world, by far. On top of that, it is the religion that gets in unproportional amount of media time in every european country due to all the problems it represents.
- ehecatl42 4y ago
  > There were increases in the number of people who described themselves as “Muslim” (3.9 million, 6.5% in 2021, up from 2.7 million, 4.9% in 2011) and “Hindu” (1.0 million, 1.7% in 2021, up from 818,000, 1.5% in 2011). UK Census 2021 (England and Wales): https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/cultural...
- pnf 4y ago
  Germany is also ~6% Muslim. But one could argue whether Germans are a significant part of "Europe". Belgium is ~5% but that's just the seat of the EU, not a real country. Spain is ~3%, which is "interesting" given the history of Moorish conquest of Iberia and the Treaty of Grenada and the Inquisition. 2-3% in Italy, but Catholics and Muslims have a long tradition of living together in harmony. Poland's % may be a result of anti-Islam sentiment rather than a cause. But again, are Germany, Spain, Italy, and Poland really part of Europe? "Europe" is just a collection of EU members anyway, if it means anything at all. Which means Turkey will soon be "in Europe".
  - anthk 4y ago
    > which is "interesting" given the history of Moorish conquest of Iberia and the Treaty of Grenada and the Inquisition. Why? In Spain either you converted to Christianism 500 years ago or you got expelled. Most of Moors which came into Iberia where from modern Morocco origin and a few from Algeria. And a lot of them have "interesting" beliefs, such as drinking in private. Also, every Moroccan has satellite TV and for sure they follow the Spanish soccer Liga. They are very aware of Flamenco in Andalusia and the tiling from toilet rooms, which are the same in Andalusia and Morocco, or pretty close. Thus, they get assimilated fast in Spain to the Western values.
sgjohnson 4y ago
Ah. France. The country who’s president is opposed to the right to self-defense too.

by tyho 4y ago

thuridas 4y ago

The response from a caricature vs a respectful historical depiction may be very different. Remember that in US this happened not a long time ago: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabbing_of_Salman_Rushdie https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabbing_of_Salman_Rushdie

joenot443 4y ago
It's incredibly sad seeing Shia extremism making its way to North America. This was only a few months ago too. What's even scarier about this case was that the Iranian government issued a fatwa on the victim in 1989, and then Iranian state media celebrated the attack 30 years later.
- rippercushions 4y ago
  Oddly enough, Shias are much more tolerant of depictions of Muhammed, it's the hardline Sunni who really have a problem with it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad#Contemporary_Iran https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad#Conte...
toxik 4y ago
[flagged]
- viraptor 4y ago
  This contradicts the more nuanced explanation from the article. Did you mean to disagree with it?
- cactusplant7374 4y ago
  But not according to the Quran. There are two masters.
- kergonath 4y ago
  > According to Islam According to a perverted, fundamentalist view of Islam. Islam is much more diverse than Iran and Saudi Arabia. The fact that they manage to impose their sectarian practices as standard Islam in much of the world is very problematic.
  - rowtheway 4y ago
    This optimistic view of the Islamic world is, sadly, inaccurate. For example, as of 2013, an overwhelming majority of Muslims wish to make Sharia the law of the land: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-m...
    - defrost 4y ago
      This pessimistic view of Islam is equally inaccurate. From your own link: > In most regions, fewer favor other specific aspects of sharia, such as cutting off the hands of thieves and executing people who convert from Islam to another faith. Just as most Christians believe that Christian values should guide the law of the land they live in and just as most Christians don't support setting bears on children that mock priests.
      - rowtheway 4y ago
        >and just as most Christians don't support setting bears on children that mock priests. I’m not Christian (anymore) but I’m pretty sure this isn’t a thing in canon law. In contrast, the major strains of Islam are refreshingly clear in their treatment of apostates and unbelievers. Even a “kinder, gentler” interpretation retains the seeds of this dogma unless it rejects the Quran, which Islam holds to be the literal word of God. If you don’t hold with that, you’re not Muslim by definition.
- jnovek 4y ago
  To clarify, are you comparing Muslims who see depictions of Muhammad as sacrilegious to rabid dogs?
  - recuter 4y ago
    To clarify, you should hear how they talk about you amongst themselves.
  - toxik 4y ago
    What else do you call a group of people willing to behead innocent teachers and murder of 12 people at Charlie Hebdo?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 4y ago
  Religious flamewar and slurs ("a rabid dog") will get you banned here. Please don't post like this to HN, regardless of which group you have a problem with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

viraptor 4y ago

"In Europe" often doesn't makes sense as a generalisation. Both the UK and France have a significant Muslim population. That does not extend to Europe in general though. France is ~6% Muslim with large communities. Poland is well <0.1% with anti-islam ideas being common.

orangetuba 4y ago
They have very large representations compared to every other major non-christian religion in european countries. Islam is also the fastest growing religion in the world, by far. On top of that, it is the religion that gets in unproportional amount of media time in every european country due to all the problems it represents.
ehecatl42 4y ago
> There were increases in the number of people who described themselves as “Muslim” (3.9 million, 6.5% in 2021, up from 2.7 million, 4.9% in 2011) and “Hindu” (1.0 million, 1.7% in 2021, up from 818,000, 1.5% in 2011). UK Census 2021 (England and Wales): https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/cultural...
pnf 4y ago
Germany is also ~6% Muslim. But one could argue whether Germans are a significant part of "Europe". Belgium is ~5% but that's just the seat of the EU, not a real country. Spain is ~3%, which is "interesting" given the history of Moorish conquest of Iberia and the Treaty of Grenada and the Inquisition. 2-3% in Italy, but Catholics and Muslims have a long tradition of living together in harmony. Poland's % may be a result of anti-Islam sentiment rather than a cause. But again, are Germany, Spain, Italy, and Poland really part of Europe? "Europe" is just a collection of EU members anyway, if it means anything at all. Which means Turkey will soon be "in Europe".
- anthk 4y ago
  > which is "interesting" given the history of Moorish conquest of Iberia and the Treaty of Grenada and the Inquisition. Why? In Spain either you converted to Christianism 500 years ago or you got expelled. Most of Moors which came into Iberia where from modern Morocco origin and a few from Algeria. And a lot of them have "interesting" beliefs, such as drinking in private. Also, every Moroccan has satellite TV and for sure they follow the Spanish soccer Liga. They are very aware of Flamenco in Andalusia and the tiling from toilet rooms, which are the same in Andalusia and Morocco, or pretty close. Thus, they get assimilated fast in Spain to the Western values.

sgjohnson 4y ago

Ah. France. The country who’s president is opposed to the right to self-defense too.