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Isn't it prohibited to depict any of god's creations in some/many/all Islamic sects? Thus all the interesting geometric patterns. Does that mean that virtually

Isn't it prohibited to depict any of god's creations in some/many/all Islamic sects? Thus all the interesting geometric patterns. Does that mean that virtually all Western art is islamaphobic? At what point does the demand that Western art doesn't do something that offend Islam itself become westernphobic.

thaumasiotes 4y ago
> At what point does the demand that Western art doesn't do something that offend Islam itself become westernphobic. The standard response is that there can be no such thing as Westernphobia because the West is powerful and Islam is weak, just as there can be no such thing as anti-white racism because whites are powerful and nonwhites are weak.
- benj111 4y ago
  Yes and I take issue with that, $phobia isn't wrong just because of the power imbalance. Further these aren't monolithic entities, the power distributed between people is unequal. I've been denied a job because they were looking for a manageress (by a woman), who has the power in that situation? If you want me to treat you equally, you need to hold us both as equals, anything less is hypocrisy.
- fancybouncy 4y ago
  tell that to white people in Kenya or South Africa... I don't have the link handy right now, but I read they are routinely in danger of rape/murder because of anti-white hate.
- lakomen 4y ago
  Thus apparently extends to gender or rather sexuality as well recently. I've been banned for asking why my sexuality - heterosexual, is excluded, actually not even asked why but if a flag representing my sexuality existed, since there were a bunch of flags that represented every possible spectrum, even asexuality. I am not at all racist, my best friend has dark skin, but I also can't help but notice that on social networks there's always that black* group/tag/community never do you see white,red, yellow, only ever black. I do find that quite racist and exclusive. If we're all the same, why does such distinction exist?
  - Y_Y 4y ago
    If you want representation for red-skinned people you should go to the popular tourist spots in Spain and find some British people. Outside of that I don't think there are many people who'd identify themselves that way.
  - esprehn 4y ago
    From a quick Google search it looks like both Heterosexual and Cisgender have flags, ex. https://prideflags.info/ https://prideflags.info/
  - woofyman 4y ago
    You’ve never had to fight for basic human rights as a white straight person.
    - joxel 4y ago
      I don’t think this is true?
    - bonbonbonj 4y ago
      What if the commenter is female, or disabled, or doesn't own property, or is subject to the many other axes of marginalization? It's not all about race and sexuality.
      - woofyman 4y ago
        He specifically asked about a straight flags. Non property owners are discriminated against?
        spicymaki 4y ago
        Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_flag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_flag
    - kergonath 4y ago
      That is such a myopic, stupid take. How do you even know? Are you somehow deluded enough to believe that even in western countries nobody has to fight for basic human rights? Fuck, half of Americans’ basic human rights are in flux right now, have you been paying attention?
wazoox 4y ago
This isn't Western art, it's classical Persian art, done by Muslims for Muslims. This is beyond stupid, it's plain fanaticism. These students should be sent to Iran or Afghanistan to get their feelings right. I have absolutely no patience for this sort of fascism disguised as victimisation.
- totalZero 4y ago
  Your lack of patience notwithstanding, it helps to take into consideration the fact that Islamic cultural practices vary from place to place. Saying that something is Persian doesn't fully capture the context. Sudanese Muslim culture is extremely conservative and until recently included laws against apostasy. The student who complained comes from this cultural background. Persians are generally from a different sect of Islam and have their own cultural complications. Right or wrong, that's the context. One fact of religious tolerance is that one person will inevitably view as sacred something that another person views as stupid. Drawing lines around certain practices is a challenging task for society as a whole. I personally don't believe that reducing everything to "fascism" is productive. Your suggestion that people be deported to Iran or Afghanistan is among the most common racist retorts against Muslim people and indicates a lack of tolerance for what is in reality a fairly complicated issue that can only be solved by mutual respect.
  - wazoox 4y ago
    > mutual respect That's the point. This student obviously doesn't have any respect for the country and the culture he's currently living in. He has a point to make and a war to wage. And that's not xenophobic to say that; I've hosted an Afghan refugees for months. I didn't try to feed him pork, and he didn't try to stab me for eating ham or not praying for Allah. There are decent people everywhere. You can be an oppressed refugee, and still be a fascistic, intolerant moron; you can be a white cis male billionaire and still be a good person (this one's tough though). Being a victim buys you no moral superiority at all. Being a decent person only does.
    - totalZero 4y ago
MadsRC 4y ago
It is not prohibited by the Quran at all, at least I’ve never found a reference in the Quran that indicates that it is forbidden. Please do correct me if I’m wrong, it’s been many years since I last read the Quran. The Bible however, does actually forbid it: Exodus 20:4 I seem to remember that Jehovas Witnesses actually practice this as they take the words of the Bible literally. I’m by no way an expert on theology, mainly interested on a hobby level, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
- dwheeler 4y ago
  Most Jews and Christians interpret this text as prohibiting the creating and worshipping of idols, not of prohibiting images in general. As long as it's not being directly worshipped, or being created for that purpose, you're fine. As always for any text, it's important to read the text before and after it. I think its context makes it clear that the text is addressing just idols. As evidence, consider the vast number of practicing Jews and Christians who were or are artists. Also consider the vast number of churches which have artwork (like stained glass and statues).
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  “In Exodus 20:4 God condemned the carving of statues for the sake of worshipping them as idols–a blasphemy the Catholic Church also condemns. In Exodus 25:18-20, on the other hand, God commands Moses to carve statues for a religious purpose: two cherubim which would sit atop the Ark of the Covenant. Notice that these angelic images were to serve such an exalted purpose (not because the statues themselves were in any way intrinsically exalted but because of the use to which they would be put) that God was very exacting in the instructions he gave Moses as to the materials to be used and the posture in which they were to be carved. Similar divine commands to carve statues and embroider images of various religious objects are found in Exodus 21:6-9, Numbers 21:6-9, 1 Kings 6:23-28, and 1 Kings 7:23- 39. In each case, the statue or embroidered image was intended by God for a religious use. Although the worship of anything, not just statues, in place of the True God is idolatry, there are times when statues are not just tolerable but recommended. Just as those Old Testament statues were ordered fashioned by God to reminded the Israelites of heavenly realities, Catholic statues of Jesus and the angels and the saints serve the same purpose.”
morby 4y ago
This is a nonsensical conclusion because obviously the Muslim world doesn’t perceive western art in this way. I do think there is a distinct difference between expecting respect from people that you share space with. Someone will surely reply about the violence some people partake in. Violence is never okay and is the route of maybe 0.5% of people, so I think basing how you interact with an entire demographic of people on that is myopic.
- mola 4y ago
  You assume the majority doesn't support violence as a response for depiction of Mohammed. The reality might surprise you.
coldcode 4y ago
Historically speaking, prohibiting depictions of Muhammad are a recent concept in Sunni Islam, especially the Saudi driven Wahhabism which is extremely conservative. Over history art as always been a huge part of Islamic life. This painting has been revered for centuries. The only reason this time it caused the school to go berserk is a single student complained, leading to overreaction in fear. Details: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/08/an-art-treasure-long-cherished-by-muslims-is-deemed-offensive-but-to-whom https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/08/an-art...
- cactusplant7374 4y ago
  Are you saying Shia muslims don't feel the same?
bonbonbonj 4y ago
I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that being Islamophobic is actually a good thing overall, given the content of Islam as written in the Quran and Hadith, and the actions of Mohammed. If it were to be implemented in full in any of our Western societies today, it would result in a misogynistic, brutal, intolerant regime that infringes severely on what we understand as universal human rights. Just look at Afghanistan for an example. We should definitely be "phobic" of this.
- orf 4y ago
  > If it were to be implemented in full in any of our Western societies today, it would result in a misogynistic, brutal, intolerant regime that infringes severely on what we understand as universal human rights. Similar to fundamental Christianity then?
  - amrocha 4y ago
    Yes. That one sucks too. They both suck. It's not a zero sum game, religious beliefs are not a good basis for societal norm regardless of the name of the religion.

thaumasiotes 4y ago

> At what point does the demand that Western art doesn't do something that offend Islam itself become westernphobic. The standard response is that there can be no such thing as Westernphobia because the West is powerful and Islam is weak, just as there can be no such thing as anti-white racism because whites are powerful and nonwhites are weak.

benj111 4y ago
Yes and I take issue with that, $phobia isn't wrong just because of the power imbalance. Further these aren't monolithic entities, the power distributed between people is unequal. I've been denied a job because they were looking for a manageress (by a woman), who has the power in that situation? If you want me to treat you equally, you need to hold us both as equals, anything less is hypocrisy.
fancybouncy 4y ago
tell that to white people in Kenya or South Africa... I don't have the link handy right now, but I read they are routinely in danger of rape/murder because of anti-white hate.
lakomen 4y ago
Thus apparently extends to gender or rather sexuality as well recently. I've been banned for asking why my sexuality - heterosexual, is excluded, actually not even asked why but if a flag representing my sexuality existed, since there were a bunch of flags that represented every possible spectrum, even asexuality. I am not at all racist, my best friend has dark skin, but I also can't help but notice that on social networks there's always that black* group/tag/community never do you see white,red, yellow, only ever black. I do find that quite racist and exclusive. If we're all the same, why does such distinction exist?
- Y_Y 4y ago
  If you want representation for red-skinned people you should go to the popular tourist spots in Spain and find some British people. Outside of that I don't think there are many people who'd identify themselves that way.
- esprehn 4y ago
  From a quick Google search it looks like both Heterosexual and Cisgender have flags, ex. https://prideflags.info/ https://prideflags.info/
- woofyman 4y ago
  You’ve never had to fight for basic human rights as a white straight person.
  - joxel 4y ago
    I don’t think this is true?
  - bonbonbonj 4y ago
    What if the commenter is female, or disabled, or doesn't own property, or is subject to the many other axes of marginalization? It's not all about race and sexuality.
    - woofyman 4y ago
      He specifically asked about a straight flags. Non property owners are discriminated against?
      - spicymaki 4y ago
        Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_flag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_flag
  - kergonath 4y ago
    That is such a myopic, stupid take. How do you even know? Are you somehow deluded enough to believe that even in western countries nobody has to fight for basic human rights? Fuck, half of Americans’ basic human rights are in flux right now, have you been paying attention?

wazoox 4y ago

This isn't Western art, it's classical Persian art, done by Muslims for Muslims. This is beyond stupid, it's plain fanaticism. These students should be sent to Iran or Afghanistan to get their feelings right. I have absolutely no patience for this sort of fascism disguised as victimisation.

totalZero 4y ago
Your lack of patience notwithstanding, it helps to take into consideration the fact that Islamic cultural practices vary from place to place. Saying that something is Persian doesn't fully capture the context. Sudanese Muslim culture is extremely conservative and until recently included laws against apostasy. The student who complained comes from this cultural background. Persians are generally from a different sect of Islam and have their own cultural complications. Right or wrong, that's the context. One fact of religious tolerance is that one person will inevitably view as sacred something that another person views as stupid. Drawing lines around certain practices is a challenging task for society as a whole. I personally don't believe that reducing everything to "fascism" is productive. Your suggestion that people be deported to Iran or Afghanistan is among the most common racist retorts against Muslim people and indicates a lack of tolerance for what is in reality a fairly complicated issue that can only be solved by mutual respect.
- wazoox 4y ago
  > mutual respect That's the point. This student obviously doesn't have any respect for the country and the culture he's currently living in. He has a point to make and a war to wage. And that's not xenophobic to say that; I've hosted an Afghan refugees for months. I didn't try to feed him pork, and he didn't try to stab me for eating ham or not praying for Allah. There are decent people everywhere. You can be an oppressed refugee, and still be a fascistic, intolerant moron; you can be a white cis male billionaire and still be a good person (this one's tough though). Being a victim buys you no moral superiority at all. Being a decent person only does.
  - totalZero 4y ago

MadsRC 4y ago

It is not prohibited by the Quran at all, at least I’ve never found a reference in the Quran that indicates that it is forbidden. Please do correct me if I’m wrong, it’s been many years since I last read the Quran. The Bible however, does actually forbid it: Exodus 20:4 I seem to remember that Jehovas Witnesses actually practice this as they take the words of the Bible literally. I’m by no way an expert on theology, mainly interested on a hobby level, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

dwheeler 4y ago
Most Jews and Christians interpret this text as prohibiting the creating and worshipping of idols, not of prohibiting images in general. As long as it's not being directly worshipped, or being created for that purpose, you're fine. As always for any text, it's important to read the text before and after it. I think its context makes it clear that the text is addressing just idols. As evidence, consider the vast number of practicing Jews and Christians who were or are artists. Also consider the vast number of churches which have artwork (like stained glass and statues).
mensetmanusman 4y ago
“In Exodus 20:4 God condemned the carving of statues for the sake of worshipping them as idols–a blasphemy the Catholic Church also condemns. In Exodus 25:18-20, on the other hand, God commands Moses to carve statues for a religious purpose: two cherubim which would sit atop the Ark of the Covenant. Notice that these angelic images were to serve such an exalted purpose (not because the statues themselves were in any way intrinsically exalted but because of the use to which they would be put) that God was very exacting in the instructions he gave Moses as to the materials to be used and the posture in which they were to be carved. Similar divine commands to carve statues and embroider images of various religious objects are found in Exodus 21:6-9, Numbers 21:6-9, 1 Kings 6:23-28, and 1 Kings 7:23- 39. In each case, the statue or embroidered image was intended by God for a religious use. Although the worship of anything, not just statues, in place of the True God is idolatry, there are times when statues are not just tolerable but recommended. Just as those Old Testament statues were ordered fashioned by God to reminded the Israelites of heavenly realities, Catholic statues of Jesus and the angels and the saints serve the same purpose.”

morby 4y ago

This is a nonsensical conclusion because obviously the Muslim world doesn’t perceive western art in this way. I do think there is a distinct difference between expecting respect from people that you share space with. Someone will surely reply about the violence some people partake in. Violence is never okay and is the route of maybe 0.5% of people, so I think basing how you interact with an entire demographic of people on that is myopic.

mola 4y ago
You assume the majority doesn't support violence as a response for depiction of Mohammed. The reality might surprise you.

coldcode 4y ago

Historically speaking, prohibiting depictions of Muhammad are a recent concept in Sunni Islam, especially the Saudi driven Wahhabism which is extremely conservative. Over history art as always been a huge part of Islamic life. This painting has been revered for centuries. The only reason this time it caused the school to go berserk is a single student complained, leading to overreaction in fear. Details: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/08/an-art-treasure-long-cherished-by-muslims-is-deemed-offensive-but-to-whom https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/08/an-art...

cactusplant7374 4y ago
Are you saying Shia muslims don't feel the same?

bonbonbonj 4y ago

I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that being Islamophobic is actually a good thing overall, given the content of Islam as written in the Quran and Hadith, and the actions of Mohammed. If it were to be implemented in full in any of our Western societies today, it would result in a misogynistic, brutal, intolerant regime that infringes severely on what we understand as universal human rights. Just look at Afghanistan for an example. We should definitely be "phobic" of this.

orf 4y ago
> If it were to be implemented in full in any of our Western societies today, it would result in a misogynistic, brutal, intolerant regime that infringes severely on what we understand as universal human rights. Similar to fundamental Christianity then?
- amrocha 4y ago
  Yes. That one sucks too. They both suck. It's not a zero sum game, religious beliefs are not a good basis for societal norm regardless of the name of the religion.