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It's probably important to put this into context of Google's views towards management, especially back then. At one point they even experimented (briefly) with

It's probably important to put this into context of Google's views towards management, especially back then. At one point they even experimented (briefly) with having no middle management. My understanding is that they still try to limit the number of managers and their ability to harm the organization by using tactics like higher ratios of developers for each manager. They actively try to reduce negative behaviors like micro-management by middle managers. It's not exactly common for an organization to actively attempt to mitigate the negative aspects of middle management so it's almost an apples to oranges comparison. But since we're on the topic of Google, maybe making management reduction one of an organization's goals is the correct strategy to reduce the bloat and increase the productivity of ICs.

treis 4y ago
>My understanding is that they still try to limit the number of managers IMHO this is really the point. Somebody has to hire devs, run the evaluation/promotion stuff, facilitate communication to/from upper management, and so on. I've just never been to a place that couldn't do that with 1/2 to 1/3 of the EMs they have. For whatever reason the standard is one EM per team. A better ratio is on EM per 2-4 teams.
- jensensbutton 4y ago
  Then don't be surprised when you don't get promo's because the manager responsible isn't familiar with your work.
fangorn 4y ago
From what I've been told, you need to "change something" in order to get promoted at Google. Doesn't much matter what, as long as it's a visible change, presumably at least marginally improving things. And that illustrates what releasing half-baked stuff and not caring much about tech debt is all about - visibility. This seems to be true across industries. Not releasing something, even if it's not ready gives impression of not doing enough, not delivering, always being late, etc. Releasing stuff shows you (the manager) are the person who delivers. If it's crap, you'll get even more resources to throw at fixing stuff that's already delivered. And you're the hero again (even if it's "techies" who did 80-hour weeks to make it happen). This doesn't even break down too much in physical product world. "Deliver" could mean sales, first to the market, we'll add copy&paste in 3.0, and so on...
- wildrhythms 4y ago
  I feel like this happens at every tech company I've worked for. The management in charge of promotions is not tech savvy, so 'under the hood' improvements and general maintenance goes completely unappreciated, while flashy, superficial UI updates are bestowed with gold medals and promotions.

treis 4y ago

>My understanding is that they still try to limit the number of managers IMHO this is really the point. Somebody has to hire devs, run the evaluation/promotion stuff, facilitate communication to/from upper management, and so on. I've just never been to a place that couldn't do that with 1/2 to 1/3 of the EMs they have. For whatever reason the standard is one EM per team. A better ratio is on EM per 2-4 teams.

jensensbutton 4y ago
Then don't be surprised when you don't get promo's because the manager responsible isn't familiar with your work.

fangorn 4y ago

From what I've been told, you need to "change something" in order to get promoted at Google. Doesn't much matter what, as long as it's a visible change, presumably at least marginally improving things. And that illustrates what releasing half-baked stuff and not caring much about tech debt is all about - visibility. This seems to be true across industries. Not releasing something, even if it's not ready gives impression of not doing enough, not delivering, always being late, etc. Releasing stuff shows you (the manager) are the person who delivers. If it's crap, you'll get even more resources to throw at fixing stuff that's already delivered. And you're the hero again (even if it's "techies" who did 80-hour weeks to make it happen). This doesn't even break down too much in physical product world. "Deliver" could mean sales, first to the market, we'll add copy&paste in 3.0, and so on...

wildrhythms 4y ago
I feel like this happens at every tech company I've worked for. The management in charge of promotions is not tech savvy, so 'under the hood' improvements and general maintenance goes completely unappreciated, while flashy, superficial UI updates are bestowed with gold medals and promotions.