3 ms·

First of all, all information I had was from the video. Author specifically circled "trafficking in drugs", not "possession" in warrant picture as a thing he cl

First of all, all information I had was from the video. Author specifically circled "trafficking in drugs", not "possession" in warrant picture as a thing he clearly shows intent of admitting (at least in the song video). I don't know the full story, but its not linked here, so I went with the information I had. >are you saying destroying property, needlessly traumatizing children, going in armed like it's world war three or they were hunting for bin laden, stealing his money and disconnecting cameras so their actions won't be recorded I am not saying anything, just trying to understand people's reaction with the limited information. It seems conflicting to me. >Please don't feel insulted but I feel like your comment is a result of poor civic education in America I am not from USA, I am from EU. In EU, in quite a few places at least, police does not even need a warrant. If they think you are doing a crime (using drugs, possessing drugs) - they can just bust in to your house and arrest you. So compared to that, USA judge granting warrants system sounds great to me. Then again, I don't know everything, maybe you have similar laws as well. >Regarding busting in instead of respectful knocking From one side I do agree that innocent people shouldn't get swatted. But, from another perspective: If you don't break in fast - criminals will one hundred percent destroy the evidence needed to put them away.

ookdatnog 4y ago
> I am not saying anything, just trying to understand people's reaction with the limited information. It seems conflicting to me. I'm not sure how anyone could explain it to you if you have no automatic reaction to what happens in the video. The amount of force used seems to me to be obviously excessive for the crime Afroman is accused of (that is, selling weed), to the point where I don't see how I could possibly clarify further. Perhaps one thing may help clarify: whether he's guilty or not is mostly irrelevant to my reaction to this footage. Even if he's guilty, that's excessive force for arresting a weed dealer. The only thing that could change my mind is if the police could produce believable evidence that they had good reason to think he would be violent (such as a record of violent incidents, or membership of a violent gang; the warrant at least does not specify any of this). The cops refuse to show evidence that they had reason to believe he is a violent criminal (and as the aggressors here, it's on them to provide this), but they barge in as if he's a terrorist with plans to blow up a primary school. If that doesn't provoke any sort of "this is deeply unjust and a massive abuse of power" reaction in you, I don't expect any amount of explaining will result in you understanding people's reaction.
- perceptronas 4y ago
  >If that doesn't provoke any sort of "this is deeply unjust and a massive abuse of power" reaction in you, I don't expect any amount of explaining will result in you understanding people's reaction. In most of the world trafficking drugs is a serious crime with jail. Maybe in USA it is different, I admit I don't know. My original comment was that it is highly irresponsible to be doing that with a family. My first automatic reaction was how can someone with kids do that, not how police responds.
  - ookdatnog 4y ago
    It's a serious crime; it's not a violent crime. You don't see the cops busting down doors and charging in with riot shields and shotguns to catch your average white-collar fraudster, even though fraud is also a serious crime. This level of violent entry can only be justified by a reasonable belief, founded on evidence (which the police refuses to produce), that the suspect will be violent. (As an aside, there's no evidence that Afroman is guilty of selling drugs; that makes it even harder for me to understand why your first gut response is to think "how can someone with kids do that". There's no reason to think he's guilty, apart from blind trust in the police's word.)
    - porcheetoh 4y ago
      > There's no reason to think he's guilty, apart from blind trust in the police's word. In my experience there’s a very deeply ingrained sense that police are the good guys lingering in average suburban Americans of a certain age. (I’m sure in others too that’s just my background.) It’s really hard to discuss these kinds of topics with someone that by default accepts that police action implies necessity.
_8j50 4y ago
First,pardon my ignorance, I became one of those people who thinks everyone on the internet is an american. > From one side I do agree that innocent people shouldn't get swatted. But, from another perspective: If you don't break in fast - criminals will one hundred percent destroy the evidence needed to put them away. This isn't an american thing, it's a basic principle of justice all humans know. It is better for the guilty to get away with their crimes than for the innocent to be punished wrongly. One reason among many for that is, you can compensate financially but you can't unpunish someone. You can't remove the trauma, lost time and suffering. But for the guilty, if they get away today you can cartch them another day. And there will always be guilty people who get away with wrongs. But it is easy to prevent innocent people getting punished, simply have a good standard of evidence and trial and the presumption of innocence. Another thing to consider is cops are being lazy when this happens. Any idiot can take a gun and break through a door. It is the responsibility of cops and the government to stay a step ahead of the bad guys and use their money and resources to build a case. In this case for example, if they suspect the evidence will be destroyed then monitor who goes in and out of the place and arrest people as they leave or intercept sewage if they discard something. Monitor all entrances and communications. The warrant allows them to search which includes surveillance. They can use undercover cops. If they absolutley have no choice they can send an unarmed person who doesn't look like a cop to knock and get a repsonse. Then send armed (gun holstered) cops to ideentify themselves and within 10sec of no response break the door and politely but respectfully make sure everyone leaves so they can search and even then they must have a very good probable cause! And lastly, if the person is innocent they should pay them for the damages and provide counseling and any other support or treatment, especially for children.
falconinthesun 4y ago
Your initial post didn't seem like a question as someone who doesn't live in the US, it seemed to me more like an accusation. As someone from south america living in the EU it seems to me fairly strange that it's not immediately apparent that the sort of violence depicted from the police is completely unwarranted - I've seen police raids in both south america and in the EU, and this level of going in fully armed with military-grade gear is only reserved for the most extreme of cases and /always/ supported by a court order. There's no argument whatsoever in that search warrants with no body of evidence should involve SWAT-team levels of response, which clearly was not the case as there's enough evidence to go around that the search warrant is literally a piece of paper that anyone can invent without need to provide supporting evidence for their claims.

ookdatnog 4y ago

> I am not saying anything, just trying to understand people's reaction with the limited information. It seems conflicting to me. I'm not sure how anyone could explain it to you if you have no automatic reaction to what happens in the video. The amount of force used seems to me to be obviously excessive for the crime Afroman is accused of (that is, selling weed), to the point where I don't see how I could possibly clarify further. Perhaps one thing may help clarify: whether he's guilty or not is mostly irrelevant to my reaction to this footage. Even if he's guilty, that's excessive force for arresting a weed dealer. The only thing that could change my mind is if the police could produce believable evidence that they had good reason to think he would be violent (such as a record of violent incidents, or membership of a violent gang; the warrant at least does not specify any of this). The cops refuse to show evidence that they had reason to believe he is a violent criminal (and as the aggressors here, it's on them to provide this), but they barge in as if he's a terrorist with plans to blow up a primary school. If that doesn't provoke any sort of "this is deeply unjust and a massive abuse of power" reaction in you, I don't expect any amount of explaining will result in you understanding people's reaction.

perceptronas 4y ago
>If that doesn't provoke any sort of "this is deeply unjust and a massive abuse of power" reaction in you, I don't expect any amount of explaining will result in you understanding people's reaction. In most of the world trafficking drugs is a serious crime with jail. Maybe in USA it is different, I admit I don't know. My original comment was that it is highly irresponsible to be doing that with a family. My first automatic reaction was how can someone with kids do that, not how police responds.
- ookdatnog 4y ago
  It's a serious crime; it's not a violent crime. You don't see the cops busting down doors and charging in with riot shields and shotguns to catch your average white-collar fraudster, even though fraud is also a serious crime. This level of violent entry can only be justified by a reasonable belief, founded on evidence (which the police refuses to produce), that the suspect will be violent. (As an aside, there's no evidence that Afroman is guilty of selling drugs; that makes it even harder for me to understand why your first gut response is to think "how can someone with kids do that". There's no reason to think he's guilty, apart from blind trust in the police's word.)
  - porcheetoh 4y ago
    > There's no reason to think he's guilty, apart from blind trust in the police's word. In my experience there’s a very deeply ingrained sense that police are the good guys lingering in average suburban Americans of a certain age. (I’m sure in others too that’s just my background.) It’s really hard to discuss these kinds of topics with someone that by default accepts that police action implies necessity.

_8j50 4y ago

First,pardon my ignorance, I became one of those people who thinks everyone on the internet is an american. > From one side I do agree that innocent people shouldn't get swatted. But, from another perspective: If you don't break in fast - criminals will one hundred percent destroy the evidence needed to put them away. This isn't an american thing, it's a basic principle of justice all humans know. It is better for the guilty to get away with their crimes than for the innocent to be punished wrongly. One reason among many for that is, you can compensate financially but you can't unpunish someone. You can't remove the trauma, lost time and suffering. But for the guilty, if they get away today you can cartch them another day. And there will always be guilty people who get away with wrongs. But it is easy to prevent innocent people getting punished, simply have a good standard of evidence and trial and the presumption of innocence. Another thing to consider is cops are being lazy when this happens. Any idiot can take a gun and break through a door. It is the responsibility of cops and the government to stay a step ahead of the bad guys and use their money and resources to build a case. In this case for example, if they suspect the evidence will be destroyed then monitor who goes in and out of the place and arrest people as they leave or intercept sewage if they discard something. Monitor all entrances and communications. The warrant allows them to search which includes surveillance. They can use undercover cops. If they absolutley have no choice they can send an unarmed person who doesn't look like a cop to knock and get a repsonse. Then send armed (gun holstered) cops to ideentify themselves and within 10sec of no response break the door and politely but respectfully make sure everyone leaves so they can search and even then they must have a very good probable cause! And lastly, if the person is innocent they should pay them for the damages and provide counseling and any other support or treatment, especially for children.

falconinthesun 4y ago

Your initial post didn't seem like a question as someone who doesn't live in the US, it seemed to me more like an accusation. As someone from south america living in the EU it seems to me fairly strange that it's not immediately apparent that the sort of violence depicted from the police is completely unwarranted - I've seen police raids in both south america and in the EU, and this level of going in fully armed with military-grade gear is only reserved for the most extreme of cases and /always/ supported by a court order. There's no argument whatsoever in that search warrants with no body of evidence should involve SWAT-team levels of response, which clearly was not the case as there's enough evidence to go around that the search warrant is literally a piece of paper that anyone can invent without need to provide supporting evidence for their claims.