29 ms·

Effects on the lips of horn players seated too close to the timpani (2014)

139 points by camtarn 4y ago

camtarn 4y ago
From the linked paper: 'Gunther Schuller (b. 1925), an influential horn player, writes: “The timpani’s spreading wave-lengths back up through the horn, violently jarring the player’s lips. Under these conditions split notes abound and what notes can be played develop a strong rasp. A half minute of this and the horn player will retain no sensitivity in his lips” (1962). ... This proximity effect with the timpani has also been highlighted as a potential source of injury to horn players (Horvath, 2010), where “the impact of the timpani on the horn is an extremely direct and painful one” (Schuller, 1962), “like being hit in the mouth” (Buckle, 2008), and “will also negatively affect endurance” (Hill, 2001).'
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
santoriv 4y ago
Hmmm i never noticed this. It’s a lot worse to sit in front of the trumpets tbh. At least from a hearing loss perspective.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Eargasm...
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    To expand a bit on that: it's a brand of musicians earplugs.
- xo5vik 4y ago
  In a semi-confined space too - eg an orchestra pit at the opera... Musician wins landmark ruling over ruined hearing (2018) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-43571144 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-43571144
- cpfohl 4y ago
  Yeah I was a tubist. Timpanis were arms length away, I have to assume that the effect is only for French Horn players…that tiny mouthpiece and the continuous tapering and the intense flare at the end…it’s also aimed a funny direction compared to the other brass instruments (a little to the side rather than up or straight ahead).
ycombinete 4y ago
This made me think instantly of the famous Shouting in the Datacenter video [0] [0] https://youtu.be/tDacjrSCeq4 https://youtu.be/tDacjrSCeq4
- afandian 4y ago
  Just to close the loop: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj4BFvwwj-o https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj4BFvwwj-o
- jacquesm 4y ago
  I think if you try to bring a Timpani into a data center that you may have some trouble during the admission phase.
rzzzt 4y ago
Reading the title I thought it's going to be related to human physiology and was wondering how can you sit too close to your middle ear...
anotheryou 4y ago
If you toot one horn in to another it's also a surprisingly strong disruption. I tried using it as an effect ones, but didn't really succeed to do anything useful (feeding sines through my trumpet while playing it with some Y adapter)
- brudgers 4y ago
  Technically, trumpets are not horns. Horns have conical bores. Brass instruments have a cylindrical bores and a flare at the end. The flare of a brass instrument is mostly for projection. The conical bore of a horn is primarily for timbre.
  - jasone 4y ago
    You're right that trumpets have cylindrical bores, but that's not a universal characteristic of brass instruments. For example, cornets and euphoniums have conical bores, yet they are brass instruments; their cylindrical-bore counterparts are trumpets and baritones, respectively.
jacquesm 4y ago
The dynamic range of a full size symphonic orchestra is very impressive, it's 105+ dB! A Timpani up close you can feel in your belly as though someone punched you lightly in the gut and you can wear earplugs all you want it isn't going to help you if the horn you play concentrates that shock wave in the reverse manner in which it allows your own notes to go out, probably much worse if your chosen note happens to match the note to which that particular timpani is tuned. From the bell end to your mouthpiece it's essentially an open channel with a very specific length chosen to match the pitch at which the whole thing resonates. Get close to that frequency and anything you (and others, such as timpani players) do will be amplified. Your puny outgoing breath will have to fight with the force of a grown man hitting a ~1square meter sheet of very taut skin. It's a pretty uneven match. Do Timpani players themselves play with ear protection? (Pretty common for drummers in pop music.) Incidentally, if someone is willing to pick it up, I still have a silver plated Yamaha slide sitting here that hasn't been used for years (one of my lungs isn't what it used to be). Free to a good home.
- antonmosich 4y ago
  > Do Timpani players themselves play with ear protection? (Pretty common for drummers in pop music.) I would be surprised to see someone playing the Timpani wearing ear protection, if there aren't other even "louder" musicians around. If someone in proximity is playing the cymbals (or snare drum, or whip etc.) loudly though, I would absolutely use ear protection even when playing Timpani.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Snare or cymbals can be extremely loud up close but their spectrum is more like white noise, in comparison a Timpani is more like an 'audio laser' for want of a better term, relatively few harmonics and all of the energy concentrated in a very narrow band.
  - MengerSponge 4y ago
    It's really common for percussionists to have fitted "musician's earplugs" https://www.etymotic.com/product/custom-musicians-earplugs-with-attenuator/ https://www.etymotic.com/product/custom-musicians-earplugs-w... If you see much live music, it's worth picking up a pair too. If you rarely go, a pair of universal-fit plugs costs a tenth as much.
telesilla 4y ago
Youth orchestra, second violin, next to the cannons for Tchaikovksy's 1812. As measure 328 approaches, disobey the conductor, put down the violin and cover ears. https://youtu.be/0F5k70xwGSk?t=8m https://youtu.be/0F5k70xwGSk?t=8m
- Eduard 4y ago
  Didn't see the violin. What's the timestamp?
  - telesilla 4y ago
    Speaking from experience :)
herodotus 4y ago
There is a wonderful YouTube video of Beethoven's 9th 4th movement taken and recorded next to the Timpanist. From this position, the brass dominates the rest of the orchestra. Fun to watch. I always enjoy watching the Timpanist in live performance. Worth sitting in the royal circle (ie upstairs) just to get this perspective. Video: https://youtu.be/XjvNd4yC8gs https://youtu.be/XjvNd4yC8gs
jay-anderson 4y ago
When I was young taking horn lessons my teacher told me that being too close to the timpani can increase your chance to miss notes. This paper is useful in showing some evidence for that. This problem is more unique to the horn as its bell points backwards (and to the horn player's right side). From the audience and conductor's perspective (the house) the horns are usually center or on the left side (stage right) of the stage and the timpani are on the right (stage left) so it isn't an issue. However sometimes you show up and you're pointing right at the timpani or bass drum. I played in one group for a while that did that and it was very frustrating working with them to change it (it never happened). They squeezed us in so tight that it just didn't work well for the horns. To be effective the horn really needs some space and good surfaces behind to reflect the sound into the hall.

139 points by camtarn 4y ago

From the linked paper: 'Gunther Schuller (b. 1925), an influential horn player, writes: “The timpani’s spreading wave-lengths back up through the horn, violently jarring the player’s lips. Under these conditions split notes abound and what notes can be played develop a strong rasp. A half minute of this and the horn player will retain no sensitivity in his lips” (1962). ... This proximity effect with the timpani has also been highlighted as a potential source of injury to horn players (Horvath, 2010), where “the impact of the timpani on the horn is an extremely direct and painful one” (Schuller, 1962), “like being hit in the mouth” (Buckle, 2008), and “will also negatively affect endurance” (Hill, 2001).'

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

santoriv 4y ago

Hmmm i never noticed this. It’s a lot worse to sit in front of the trumpets tbh. At least from a hearing loss perspective.

jacquesm 4y ago
Eargasm...
- jacquesm 4y ago
  To expand a bit on that: it's a brand of musicians earplugs.
xo5vik 4y ago
In a semi-confined space too - eg an orchestra pit at the opera... Musician wins landmark ruling over ruined hearing (2018) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-43571144 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-43571144
cpfohl 4y ago
Yeah I was a tubist. Timpanis were arms length away, I have to assume that the effect is only for French Horn players…that tiny mouthpiece and the continuous tapering and the intense flare at the end…it’s also aimed a funny direction compared to the other brass instruments (a little to the side rather than up or straight ahead).

ycombinete 4y ago

This made me think instantly of the famous Shouting in the Datacenter video [0] [0] https://youtu.be/tDacjrSCeq4 https://youtu.be/tDacjrSCeq4

afandian 4y ago
Just to close the loop: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj4BFvwwj-o https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj4BFvwwj-o
jacquesm 4y ago
I think if you try to bring a Timpani into a data center that you may have some trouble during the admission phase.

rzzzt 4y ago

Reading the title I thought it's going to be related to human physiology and was wondering how can you sit too close to your middle ear...

anotheryou 4y ago

If you toot one horn in to another it's also a surprisingly strong disruption. I tried using it as an effect ones, but didn't really succeed to do anything useful (feeding sines through my trumpet while playing it with some Y adapter)

brudgers 4y ago
Technically, trumpets are not horns. Horns have conical bores. Brass instruments have a cylindrical bores and a flare at the end. The flare of a brass instrument is mostly for projection. The conical bore of a horn is primarily for timbre.
- jasone 4y ago
  You're right that trumpets have cylindrical bores, but that's not a universal characteristic of brass instruments. For example, cornets and euphoniums have conical bores, yet they are brass instruments; their cylindrical-bore counterparts are trumpets and baritones, respectively.

jacquesm 4y ago

The dynamic range of a full size symphonic orchestra is very impressive, it's 105+ dB! A Timpani up close you can feel in your belly as though someone punched you lightly in the gut and you can wear earplugs all you want it isn't going to help you if the horn you play concentrates that shock wave in the reverse manner in which it allows your own notes to go out, probably much worse if your chosen note happens to match the note to which that particular timpani is tuned. From the bell end to your mouthpiece it's essentially an open channel with a very specific length chosen to match the pitch at which the whole thing resonates. Get close to that frequency and anything you (and others, such as timpani players) do will be amplified. Your puny outgoing breath will have to fight with the force of a grown man hitting a ~1square meter sheet of very taut skin. It's a pretty uneven match. Do Timpani players themselves play with ear protection? (Pretty common for drummers in pop music.) Incidentally, if someone is willing to pick it up, I still have a silver plated Yamaha slide sitting here that hasn't been used for years (one of my lungs isn't what it used to be). Free to a good home.

antonmosich 4y ago
> Do Timpani players themselves play with ear protection? (Pretty common for drummers in pop music.) I would be surprised to see someone playing the Timpani wearing ear protection, if there aren't other even "louder" musicians around. If someone in proximity is playing the cymbals (or snare drum, or whip etc.) loudly though, I would absolutely use ear protection even when playing Timpani.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Snare or cymbals can be extremely loud up close but their spectrum is more like white noise, in comparison a Timpani is more like an 'audio laser' for want of a better term, relatively few harmonics and all of the energy concentrated in a very narrow band.
- MengerSponge 4y ago
  It's really common for percussionists to have fitted "musician's earplugs" https://www.etymotic.com/product/custom-musicians-earplugs-with-attenuator/ https://www.etymotic.com/product/custom-musicians-earplugs-w... If you see much live music, it's worth picking up a pair too. If you rarely go, a pair of universal-fit plugs costs a tenth as much.

telesilla 4y ago

Youth orchestra, second violin, next to the cannons for Tchaikovksy's 1812. As measure 328 approaches, disobey the conductor, put down the violin and cover ears. https://youtu.be/0F5k70xwGSk?t=8m https://youtu.be/0F5k70xwGSk?t=8m

Eduard 4y ago
Didn't see the violin. What's the timestamp?
- telesilla 4y ago
  Speaking from experience :)

herodotus 4y ago

There is a wonderful YouTube video of Beethoven's 9th 4th movement taken and recorded next to the Timpanist. From this position, the brass dominates the rest of the orchestra. Fun to watch. I always enjoy watching the Timpanist in live performance. Worth sitting in the royal circle (ie upstairs) just to get this perspective. Video: https://youtu.be/XjvNd4yC8gs https://youtu.be/XjvNd4yC8gs

jay-anderson 4y ago

When I was young taking horn lessons my teacher told me that being too close to the timpani can increase your chance to miss notes. This paper is useful in showing some evidence for that. This problem is more unique to the horn as its bell points backwards (and to the horn player's right side). From the audience and conductor's perspective (the house) the horns are usually center or on the left side (stage right) of the stage and the timpani are on the right (stage left) so it isn't an issue. However sometimes you show up and you're pointing right at the timpani or bass drum. I played in one group for a while that did that and it was very frustrating working with them to change it (it never happened). They squeezed us in so tight that it just didn't work well for the horns. To be effective the horn really needs some space and good surfaces behind to reflect the sound into the hall.