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Hydrogen is not at all hard to contain. Just put it in a gas bottle. The real issue is the very low density which makes the tanks rather large.

by fsh 4y ago

theshrike79 4y ago
Then why do the actual people who work with hydrogen worry about transport losses if you just need a thick enough tank? In Michael Liebreich’s Keynote Speech at World Hydrogen Congress 2022[0] he speaks about the problems of shipping hydrogen. you get around 1% of loss PER DAY (0.1% for LNG). And because of the huge tanks the energy capacity is 1/4 of a comparable LNG carrier. The economics just don't make sense. [0] Michael Liebreich’s Keynote Speech at World Hydrogen Congress 2022 (16:00 mark about)
- fsh 4y ago
  The talk is about liquefied gas. Bottled gas has way too low density to put it on a tanker. The losses are due to boil-off, not due to leakage.
  - jillesvangurp 4y ago
    In gas form, hydrogen is much worse. You need about 18 truckloads of hydrogen stored at 200 bar to match a single truck load of diesel in terms of energy.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      You can also use certain oils to absorb (not sure if that is the technical correct term here) the hydrogen for transport. Renders it inert, no losses and it doesn't even count as dangerous goods for land and sea freight. Seems to be pretty easy to get the H2 out of the oil for use or transfer.
      - theshrike79 4y ago
        The man in the keynote I linked was "Michael Liebreich, Chairman and CEO of Liebreich Associates, through which he provides advisory services and speaks on clean energy and transportation, smart infrastructure, technology, climate finance and sustainable development. In September 2020, he became an official adviser to the UK’s Board of Trade". ...and he didn't know of any better ways of transporting H2 than liquid form. If it would be "pretty easy" to absorb it to oils, I'm sure that would've been tried already. the industry's goal seems to be hydrogen->ammonia - transport - ammonia->hydrogen, because ammonia is orders of magnitude easier to transport.
        hef19898 4y ago
        Just before Covid I did consulting for a green hydrogen product, on logistics, supply chain and all that. And, in the low to mid volumes, the easiest way, which included distribution to smaller sites, was using carrier oil and standard oil tank containers. I would have to look the exact oil up again. Also true, as soon as one hits high volumes nothing beats liquified gas or pipelines.
defrost 4y ago
> Just put it in a gas bottle. is a bit of an understatement. Consider that a household LNG gas cyclinder (propane if you're central north american I guess) is typically built to contain between 100 and 200 psi whereas hydrogen requires high pressure tanks to contain between 5,000–10,000 psi. That's a factor of 50 difference in required containment pressure capability.
- fsh 4y ago
  Standard industrial gas bottles are 200 or 300 bar (2900 or 4350 psi for the metrically challenged). They work just fine for storing hydrogen [1]. [1] https://www.lindedirect.com/resources/gases/hydrogen https://www.lindedirect.com/resources/gases/hydrogen
  - jillesvangurp 4y ago
    That's indeed how hydrogen is transported around today. The thing is, the volumetric density of hydrogen is quite bad. About 3x less energy than methane in gas form, which is similar to the difference in energy density in liquid form too.
- slow_typist 4y ago
  And the hydrogen will still diffuse into the steel. And make it brittle so all bottles, pipelines etc have a limited lifespan compared to infrastructure for methane. And you always need pumps to get it from one containment into another because it stays gaseous all the time. Don‘t get me wrong, all these problems are technically manageable. But from the economic perspective the H2-hype is not reasonable at all. H2-application will stay niche application. Getting iron ore reduction away from coal would be a huge accomplishment given the economics of H2.
  - fsh 4y ago
    This is yet another misconception. Hydrogen embrittlement is due to atomic hydrogen being created in chemical reactions. Gaseous hydrogen consists of H2 molecules which do not lead to embrittlement [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

Hydrogen is not at all hard to contain. Just put it in a gas bottle. The real issue is the very low density which makes the tanks rather large.

by fsh 4y ago

Hydrogen is not at all hard to contain. Just put it in a gas bottle. The real issue is the very low density which makes the tanks rather large.

theshrike79 4y ago

Then why do the actual people who work with hydrogen worry about transport losses if you just need a thick enough tank? In Michael Liebreich’s Keynote Speech at World Hydrogen Congress 2022[0] he speaks about the problems of shipping hydrogen. you get around 1% of loss PER DAY (0.1% for LNG). And because of the huge tanks the energy capacity is 1/4 of a comparable LNG carrier. The economics just don't make sense. [0] Michael Liebreich’s Keynote Speech at World Hydrogen Congress 2022 (16:00 mark about)

fsh 4y ago
The talk is about liquefied gas. Bottled gas has way too low density to put it on a tanker. The losses are due to boil-off, not due to leakage.
- jillesvangurp 4y ago
  In gas form, hydrogen is much worse. You need about 18 truckloads of hydrogen stored at 200 bar to match a single truck load of diesel in terms of energy.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    You can also use certain oils to absorb (not sure if that is the technical correct term here) the hydrogen for transport. Renders it inert, no losses and it doesn't even count as dangerous goods for land and sea freight. Seems to be pretty easy to get the H2 out of the oil for use or transfer.
    - theshrike79 4y ago
      The man in the keynote I linked was "Michael Liebreich, Chairman and CEO of Liebreich Associates, through which he provides advisory services and speaks on clean energy and transportation, smart infrastructure, technology, climate finance and sustainable development. In September 2020, he became an official adviser to the UK’s Board of Trade". ...and he didn't know of any better ways of transporting H2 than liquid form. If it would be "pretty easy" to absorb it to oils, I'm sure that would've been tried already. the industry's goal seems to be hydrogen->ammonia - transport - ammonia->hydrogen, because ammonia is orders of magnitude easier to transport.
      - hef19898 4y ago
        Just before Covid I did consulting for a green hydrogen product, on logistics, supply chain and all that. And, in the low to mid volumes, the easiest way, which included distribution to smaller sites, was using carrier oil and standard oil tank containers. I would have to look the exact oil up again. Also true, as soon as one hits high volumes nothing beats liquified gas or pipelines.

defrost 4y ago

> Just put it in a gas bottle. is a bit of an understatement. Consider that a household LNG gas cyclinder (propane if you're central north american I guess) is typically built to contain between 100 and 200 psi whereas hydrogen requires high pressure tanks to contain between 5,000–10,000 psi. That's a factor of 50 difference in required containment pressure capability.

fsh 4y ago
Standard industrial gas bottles are 200 or 300 bar (2900 or 4350 psi for the metrically challenged). They work just fine for storing hydrogen [1]. [1] https://www.lindedirect.com/resources/gases/hydrogen https://www.lindedirect.com/resources/gases/hydrogen
- jillesvangurp 4y ago
  That's indeed how hydrogen is transported around today. The thing is, the volumetric density of hydrogen is quite bad. About 3x less energy than methane in gas form, which is similar to the difference in energy density in liquid form too.
slow_typist 4y ago
And the hydrogen will still diffuse into the steel. And make it brittle so all bottles, pipelines etc have a limited lifespan compared to infrastructure for methane. And you always need pumps to get it from one containment into another because it stays gaseous all the time. Don‘t get me wrong, all these problems are technically manageable. But from the economic perspective the H2-hype is not reasonable at all. H2-application will stay niche application. Getting iron ore reduction away from coal would be a huge accomplishment given the economics of H2.
- fsh 4y ago
  This is yet another misconception. Hydrogen embrittlement is due to atomic hydrogen being created in chemical reactions. Gaseous hydrogen consists of H2 molecules which do not lead to embrittlement [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement