4 ms·

From the article, there were 6705 renunciations in 2020. Essentially nobody does this. Those that do must be in a very unique situation.

remembermylo 4y ago
I read an article a while ago that said for high net worth individuals there is a backlog of people waiting for US to process giving up US citizenship, US is under no obligation to hurry processing. Quick google search shows articles citing "30,000 backlog" of people wanting appointments to cancel.
- synu 4y ago
  Most embassies have been canceling and not scheduling these appointments, since 2019. The wait at a lot of them is still several years. I had to travel to Azerbaijan to get it done in a timely fashion.
- post_break 4y ago
  This reminds me of the insane backlog of FBI background checks for NFA items (suppressors, machine guns, SBRs). Government has no incentive to process these things in a timely matter. People have to contact their congressmen sometimes just to push the sludge along. From what I've read it's not even a different background check than when you buy a gun either, just that the extra steps and the willful laziness to slowdown something the government probably doesn't like doing but has to. You can buy a gun in 15 minutes at a gun store normally. Want to put a suppressor on it or that gun just happens to be 1" shorter than 16"? You're going to wait 9-24 months longer. Ridiculous doesn't even begin to describe it.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    Government as a whole does have an incentive to process these things fast enough to avoid a backlog, since they get $200 for every transfer. The problem is that government is so large that, in practice, the ATF doesn't care, because that $200 just goes into the US Treasury general fund. If they actually kept most of the tax they collect, I think we'd see much faster processing times, and eFile would have happened many years ago.
olliej 4y ago
(1) Many people don't know that they're "US citizens" (2) Even if you are aware of (1) you have to know of this unique bit of US taxation BS, and know that that means you have to file a US tax return (something that functionally costs money) to not be breaking the law and so be subject to fines. (3) Even if you do realize that you need to renunciate your citizenship you have to do it in person, so you have to have the ability to also get to a US embassy, and hilariously prove you're a US citizen. (4) As the article states: renunciation itself also costs money, in addition to the other costs incurred. Given (1), many impacted people don't ever actually interact with the US government, and with (2) never occurs to them that they need to do anything. (3) and (4) then add an actual barrier to renunciation, couple with the potential "immigration" impact (Flying through LAX, NYC, etc can become questionable, which is a problem given they're major hubs), means that you actually get stuck in a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Finally, despite it being ostensibly a legal right, the US government has a track record of denying basic constitutionally guaranteed rights, and renunciation is no different. Because of (3) it's necessary to make an appointment and visit in person, and the US has actively ensured that that isn't possible by understaffing and even simply canceling appointments. So while only ~2700 may have renounced citizenship, the actual backlog is in the tens of thousands.
- refurb 4y ago
  To be honest, if you’ve never interacted with the US government you can let sleeping dogs lie. For example if you’re born in a foreign country to a US citizen who can pass down citizenship. You’re a US citizen, but there is no record of it. USCIS doesn’t know, the IRS doesn’t know. Nothing will ever happen if you travel to the US on a foreign passport. I know a couple people in Canada like this.
  - olliej 4y ago
    But if you ever had a reason to immigrate to the US the process could reasonably expose you to tax problems. yay!
    - refurb 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pigsty 4y ago
That’s quite a large number especially considering Americans have one of the lowest emigration rates of any country. I think one reason it’s “low” is many destinations Americans permanently move to allow dual citizenship and Americans don’t deal with the hassle of renouncing when they can generally just ignore taxes and for the most part have no problems. Or the process of renouncing is such a pain in the ass they prefer to get a long term residence visa for their new country that doesn’t allow dual citizenship and just accept that America makes leaving difficult as a form of punishment and just not bother with the insane process at all. If it were free and doable with a single signed page, a passport to hand over, and proof of new citizenship, I think numbers would be way higher.
- fbdab103 4y ago
  The USA is ~330 million people. ~6000 annual people is not enough to register on any kind of metric as a signal. Even if the "true" number were a 100k, you are talking about 0.03% of the total population.
  - pigsty 4y ago
    Because as I stated, very few people emigrate from the US to begin with. Within the group this affects (permanent emigrants from the US), it’s not a small number. Especially considering it’s such a difficult and expensive process that most don’t bother with it for those reasons. There were more US citizenship renunciations than there were total births in Wyoming in 2020. But we don’t just ignore the existence of issues affecting people from Wyoming because “essentially nobody lives there.”
corney91 4y ago
The UK embassy at least was closed for renunciations most of 2020 due to COVID. They didn't reopen until halfway through last year, so maybe that year wasn't the best data point. Incidentally I know this because I paid the $2350 last month, so timing couldn't be more annoying. I hadn't been in the US since being 1 year old and yet financial institutions refused to take my money due to the whims of another country. If there's anything unique, it's the US doing this to people. It's an insane amount to charge just to declare you have no ties to somewhere.
voisin 4y ago
This number is limited by the amount of renunciante interviews the state department allocated in a given year. It is supply driven rather than demand driven. Knowing someone who has been working on this for years, the wait list for each interview was long before COVID and is now apparently unknowable. It’s become, effectively, a lottery.

remembermylo 4y ago

I read an article a while ago that said for high net worth individuals there is a backlog of people waiting for US to process giving up US citizenship, US is under no obligation to hurry processing. Quick google search shows articles citing "30,000 backlog" of people wanting appointments to cancel.

synu 4y ago
Most embassies have been canceling and not scheduling these appointments, since 2019. The wait at a lot of them is still several years. I had to travel to Azerbaijan to get it done in a timely fashion.
post_break 4y ago
This reminds me of the insane backlog of FBI background checks for NFA items (suppressors, machine guns, SBRs). Government has no incentive to process these things in a timely matter. People have to contact their congressmen sometimes just to push the sludge along. From what I've read it's not even a different background check than when you buy a gun either, just that the extra steps and the willful laziness to slowdown something the government probably doesn't like doing but has to. You can buy a gun in 15 minutes at a gun store normally. Want to put a suppressor on it or that gun just happens to be 1" shorter than 16"? You're going to wait 9-24 months longer. Ridiculous doesn't even begin to describe it.
- int_19h 4y ago
  Government as a whole does have an incentive to process these things fast enough to avoid a backlog, since they get $200 for every transfer. The problem is that government is so large that, in practice, the ATF doesn't care, because that $200 just goes into the US Treasury general fund. If they actually kept most of the tax they collect, I think we'd see much faster processing times, and eFile would have happened many years ago.

olliej 4y ago

(1) Many people don't know that they're "US citizens" (2) Even if you are aware of (1) you have to know of this unique bit of US taxation BS, and know that that means you have to file a US tax return (something that functionally costs money) to not be breaking the law and so be subject to fines. (3) Even if you do realize that you need to renunciate your citizenship you have to do it in person, so you have to have the ability to also get to a US embassy, and hilariously prove you're a US citizen. (4) As the article states: renunciation itself also costs money, in addition to the other costs incurred. Given (1), many impacted people don't ever actually interact with the US government, and with (2) never occurs to them that they need to do anything. (3) and (4) then add an actual barrier to renunciation, couple with the potential "immigration" impact (Flying through LAX, NYC, etc can become questionable, which is a problem given they're major hubs), means that you actually get stuck in a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Finally, despite it being ostensibly a legal right, the US government has a track record of denying basic constitutionally guaranteed rights, and renunciation is no different. Because of (3) it's necessary to make an appointment and visit in person, and the US has actively ensured that that isn't possible by understaffing and even simply canceling appointments. So while only ~2700 may have renounced citizenship, the actual backlog is in the tens of thousands.

refurb 4y ago
To be honest, if you’ve never interacted with the US government you can let sleeping dogs lie. For example if you’re born in a foreign country to a US citizen who can pass down citizenship. You’re a US citizen, but there is no record of it. USCIS doesn’t know, the IRS doesn’t know. Nothing will ever happen if you travel to the US on a foreign passport. I know a couple people in Canada like this.
- olliej 4y ago
  But if you ever had a reason to immigrate to the US the process could reasonably expose you to tax problems. yay!
  - refurb 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

pigsty 4y ago

That’s quite a large number especially considering Americans have one of the lowest emigration rates of any country. I think one reason it’s “low” is many destinations Americans permanently move to allow dual citizenship and Americans don’t deal with the hassle of renouncing when they can generally just ignore taxes and for the most part have no problems. Or the process of renouncing is such a pain in the ass they prefer to get a long term residence visa for their new country that doesn’t allow dual citizenship and just accept that America makes leaving difficult as a form of punishment and just not bother with the insane process at all. If it were free and doable with a single signed page, a passport to hand over, and proof of new citizenship, I think numbers would be way higher.

fbdab103 4y ago
The USA is ~330 million people. ~6000 annual people is not enough to register on any kind of metric as a signal. Even if the "true" number were a 100k, you are talking about 0.03% of the total population.
- pigsty 4y ago
  Because as I stated, very few people emigrate from the US to begin with. Within the group this affects (permanent emigrants from the US), it’s not a small number. Especially considering it’s such a difficult and expensive process that most don’t bother with it for those reasons. There were more US citizenship renunciations than there were total births in Wyoming in 2020. But we don’t just ignore the existence of issues affecting people from Wyoming because “essentially nobody lives there.”

corney91 4y ago

The UK embassy at least was closed for renunciations most of 2020 due to COVID. They didn't reopen until halfway through last year, so maybe that year wasn't the best data point. Incidentally I know this because I paid the $2350 last month, so timing couldn't be more annoying. I hadn't been in the US since being 1 year old and yet financial institutions refused to take my money due to the whims of another country. If there's anything unique, it's the US doing this to people. It's an insane amount to charge just to declare you have no ties to somewhere.

voisin 4y ago

This number is limited by the amount of renunciante interviews the state department allocated in a given year. It is supply driven rather than demand driven. Knowing someone who has been working on this for years, the wait list for each interview was long before COVID and is now apparently unknowable. It’s become, effectively, a lottery.