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>Gnome as a project isn't entitled to that social capital, they have to earn it. It's evident that every time they earn some, the haters invent new reasons to

>Gnome as a project isn't entitled to that social capital, they have to earn it. It's evident that every time they earn some, the haters invent new reasons to take it away by creating a new meme about how terrible GNOME is. The old meme about thumbnails in the file picker finally got fixed and you're just as angry at them as ever. Do you understand why they won't ever waste time trying to "earn" things from a group that's perpetually unhappy? I wish you would do yourself a favor and leave that group, it's not a group that's focused on actually solving any problems. >The ball really is in gnome's court for this one. Some olive branched they could extend would be some kind of dconf setting to enable typeahead in the file picker No it's not in their court. It's completely in yours. This is all open source, so you can just implement that if you want it, or use one of the many patches floating around. GNOME developers aren't under any obligation to pick up random patches off the internet that would increase their own support burden just because someone keeps asking, you can take those for yourself if you really want to deal with the mess. Like, come on. At what point will you stop blaming them and take responsibility for your own choices? At what point would you ever accept "no" for an answer? If the answer is "never" then you should be able to understand, it's you who's refusing to compromise. >The SDL developers involved have some very concrete problems that they were trying to discuss civilly. The response from the maintainer? https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217#note_3568 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217#note_3568... That's a completely civil response based on facts. Core Wayland requires apps to support client decorations. The server side decorations are an optional extension. This hasn't changed in the four years since that response was posted. It makes no sense for you to be bringing this up again. >It's a very rude response to a half dozen very maintainers of very prominent open source projects. SDL alone is a pretty big deal, if SDL is saying that your solution won't work for them then you listen, since basically all commercial application on linux use SDL. No, nothing was rude about it. The only way I can interpret this attitude is "SDL is more important than you so they should get to strongarm everyone else into doing things the way they insist" and that's definitely a take. Is that what you meant? If that's true then you're saying SDL is the real bully, not GNOME. >it means that everybody needs to create an extra special solution just for Gnome and if any other DE tried that SDL would rightly tell them to frig off. It's not a special solution for GNOME, this is required by the core Wayland protocol. >You don't think that interaction had any affect on Gnome's good will? No, I think people who already had a negative opinion of GNOME and think GNOME is responsible for all evils in Linux would use that as fodder for their anger. If it wasn't that, they'd find something else to be mad and blame GNOME about. Like, my friend, you're doing it now. >While we may not be forced to use it, they do throw their weight around and have significant effects on the open source community as a whole, so when they break stuff for people who don't even use gnome No, every issue you've said so far only affects GNOME or GTK. >But you're acting like we all owe the Gnome project our respect, and that's something I really don't get. Yes, you do owe them some basic respect and dignity if you want them to cooperate with you. What's the part of this you don't get? Your disrespect is pointless and damaging to yourself because it's leading you to make nonsensical uninformed decisions and fail to understand other people's actual positions. If you have some disagreement with Matthias then you can talk it out with him like a human being and offer to help, instead of trash talking behind someone's back. These developers are real people you know? They're not code-writing robots who all obey a hive mind. I can guarantee you're not seeing the full picture here. If your reaction to this is "no, I will never talk to those evil GNOME developers until they fulfill my list of demands" then again, please consider that it's you who's being the unreasonable one. >but stuff like that XDG-decoration thread and seeing how Matthias treated respected members of the open source community, completely disregarding their points and smugly refusing to engage in any technical discussion There's no technical discussion to be had and no one was being smug or treating anyone badly. You're shooting the messenger. Again, this is required by the core Wayland protocol. You can be upset about this but the decision was already made years prior by other people outside of GNOME's control. GNOME can't change the core Wayland protocol because that would break existing apps. I'm telling you right now. The thing you're asking for is unreasonable. If you keep making this request, you'll only end up disappointed and you'll just piss more people off for no reason. Please approach this from a different angle and avoid the trap of saying "these developers are always right and must be listened to but these other developers are always wrong and must never be listened to" because that's what you're getting into and I think you're smart enough to see that's obviously a toxic way to think about anything.

traverseda 4y ago
>Yes, you do owe them some basic respect and dignity if you want them to cooperate with you. You only owe people the respect they give you, I guess is the take away from that. Members of the Gnome project have a long history of being disrespectful to their users and to other open source projects. Basic respect and dignity, for sure, but that doesn't extend to not criticizing Gnome. Respect can mean treating someone like a person or treating someone like an authority, or a competent subject matter expert. Honestly? I think we're past the point where Gnome is going to really cooperate, and on to the point where if Gnome gets sufficient market share they're going to make their own custom extensions and extinguish the competition, or at least make a bunch of extra work for everyone. I don't want a future where Gnome is dominant, I believe that they'll abuse that position. Once again that's subjective, but I don't think it's unreasonable from looking at their past behavior. >If it wasn't that, they'd find something else to be mad and blame GNOME about. Like, my friend, you're doing it now. It can be hard to dig yourself out of a reputational hole, but I do think it's largely a Gnome attitude problem. Or maybe just a Gnome communication problem. It's sad, but it's still Gnome's problem to fix. >Again, this is required by the core Wayland protocol. I think better developers than me explained why, while technically correct, that stance is harmful to the open source community as a whole. (they do get some points for libdecor) I can't do a better job of explaining it than those developers, and if you don't see the problem there than I don't think we're going to be able to reach any sort of common ground. To be clear, there are a number of points where I am hopeful about Gnome. Libdecor was an acceptable compromise, and honestly I hope that libadwaita makes GTK more useful for non-gnome apps, but I'm reserving judgement until I see how it plays out. I'm not a zealot, I can see a handful of things that has caused my respect for the Gnome project to go up. Where as you seem to need to find a reason to dismiss every single Gnome criticism there is, I don't think you've admitted to any Gnome flaws throughout all of this. Makes it every hard to find any common ground. I think we both want open source to succeed, and we should both be on the same side, but that's hard under the circumstances.
- QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
  >Members of the Gnome project have a long history of being disrespectful to their users and to other open source projects. No. You're confusing a normal disagreement with disrespect. There's nothing disrespectful about saying "no we're not going to implement this." I assume from this confusion that you don't work in this field. If you work as a developer you get used to saying things like that all the time. Most users don't understand code. Why would they? Users come at developers with all kinds of requests, some good and some bad, and it's the developers' job to make a decision to say yes or no. >Honestly? I think we're past the point where Gnome is going to really cooperate Cooperate with who? If you want them to cooperate with you, then you need to respect them. That way they'll owe you the respect you give them. That means putting aside all the past anger you might have and practicing forgiveness. Put aside any old opinions you had and start fresh. This isn't related to GNOME by the way, this is for any project that you may have a disagreement with. Just think how this would be if the situations were switched and somebody wanted something from you for free. The ball is completely in your court because they're not the ones going on social media making long posts about how you should write some code for them! >It can be hard to dig yourself out of a reputational hole, but I do think it's largely a Gnome attitude problem. Or maybe just a Gnome communication problem. Unfortunately in this case it's neither. I can name some times when GNOME screwed up communications but this one isn't that. >I think better developers than me explained why, while technically correct, that stance is harmful to the open source community as a whole. (they do get some points for libdecor) I can't do a better job of explaining it than those developers, and if you don't see the problem there than I don't think we're going to be able to reach any sort of common ground. There's no "stance" it's just a statement of facts. This is the way things are. Call it harmful or not, GNOME developers can't change it. I see the problem, what you're not seeing is that the problem isn't fixable in the way you think it is. You still seem to think this is a "stance" or "opinion" that some developer has and not an unchangeable fact of the code. Why? If you can't explain this well then maybe consider that you're not qualified to be commenting on it? >and honestly I hope that libadwaita makes GTK more useful for non-gnome apps This already happened, have a look at what ElementaryOS is doing. >Where as you seem to need to find a reason to dismiss every single Gnome criticism there is, I don't think you've admitted to any Gnome flaws throughout all of this. I can list a bunch but I don't want to. I don't bother discussing my own opinions about GNOME on HN any more because every time I do, people who hold opinions like yours use it as an excuse to turn it into a GNOME hate-fest flamewar and start harassing the developers, calling them shitty bad people who deserve to get their reputations trashed. That stuff is unacceptable. I'm serious here when I say this. In my opinion it's your attitude that's poisoning the well. And this is why I use a throwaway account to discuss this by the way. For whatever reason the moderators here think it's ok for this to be a place where trolls and conspiracy theorists run amok. I'm glad you have some good things to say about them but the toxic negativity really needs to end.

traverseda 4y ago

>Yes, you do owe them some basic respect and dignity if you want them to cooperate with you. You only owe people the respect they give you, I guess is the take away from that. Members of the Gnome project have a long history of being disrespectful to their users and to other open source projects. Basic respect and dignity, for sure, but that doesn't extend to not criticizing Gnome. Respect can mean treating someone like a person or treating someone like an authority, or a competent subject matter expert. Honestly? I think we're past the point where Gnome is going to really cooperate, and on to the point where if Gnome gets sufficient market share they're going to make their own custom extensions and extinguish the competition, or at least make a bunch of extra work for everyone. I don't want a future where Gnome is dominant, I believe that they'll abuse that position. Once again that's subjective, but I don't think it's unreasonable from looking at their past behavior. >If it wasn't that, they'd find something else to be mad and blame GNOME about. Like, my friend, you're doing it now. It can be hard to dig yourself out of a reputational hole, but I do think it's largely a Gnome attitude problem. Or maybe just a Gnome communication problem. It's sad, but it's still Gnome's problem to fix. >Again, this is required by the core Wayland protocol. I think better developers than me explained why, while technically correct, that stance is harmful to the open source community as a whole. (they do get some points for libdecor) I can't do a better job of explaining it than those developers, and if you don't see the problem there than I don't think we're going to be able to reach any sort of common ground. To be clear, there are a number of points where I am hopeful about Gnome. Libdecor was an acceptable compromise, and honestly I hope that libadwaita makes GTK more useful for non-gnome apps, but I'm reserving judgement until I see how it plays out. I'm not a zealot, I can see a handful of things that has caused my respect for the Gnome project to go up. Where as you seem to need to find a reason to dismiss every single Gnome criticism there is, I don't think you've admitted to any Gnome flaws throughout all of this. Makes it every hard to find any common ground. I think we both want open source to succeed, and we should both be on the same side, but that's hard under the circumstances.

QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
>Members of the Gnome project have a long history of being disrespectful to their users and to other open source projects. No. You're confusing a normal disagreement with disrespect. There's nothing disrespectful about saying "no we're not going to implement this." I assume from this confusion that you don't work in this field. If you work as a developer you get used to saying things like that all the time. Most users don't understand code. Why would they? Users come at developers with all kinds of requests, some good and some bad, and it's the developers' job to make a decision to say yes or no. >Honestly? I think we're past the point where Gnome is going to really cooperate Cooperate with who? If you want them to cooperate with you, then you need to respect them. That way they'll owe you the respect you give them. That means putting aside all the past anger you might have and practicing forgiveness. Put aside any old opinions you had and start fresh. This isn't related to GNOME by the way, this is for any project that you may have a disagreement with. Just think how this would be if the situations were switched and somebody wanted something from you for free. The ball is completely in your court because they're not the ones going on social media making long posts about how you should write some code for them! >It can be hard to dig yourself out of a reputational hole, but I do think it's largely a Gnome attitude problem. Or maybe just a Gnome communication problem. Unfortunately in this case it's neither. I can name some times when GNOME screwed up communications but this one isn't that. >I think better developers than me explained why, while technically correct, that stance is harmful to the open source community as a whole. (they do get some points for libdecor) I can't do a better job of explaining it than those developers, and if you don't see the problem there than I don't think we're going to be able to reach any sort of common ground. There's no "stance" it's just a statement of facts. This is the way things are. Call it harmful or not, GNOME developers can't change it. I see the problem, what you're not seeing is that the problem isn't fixable in the way you think it is. You still seem to think this is a "stance" or "opinion" that some developer has and not an unchangeable fact of the code. Why? If you can't explain this well then maybe consider that you're not qualified to be commenting on it? >and honestly I hope that libadwaita makes GTK more useful for non-gnome apps This already happened, have a look at what ElementaryOS is doing. >Where as you seem to need to find a reason to dismiss every single Gnome criticism there is, I don't think you've admitted to any Gnome flaws throughout all of this. I can list a bunch but I don't want to. I don't bother discussing my own opinions about GNOME on HN any more because every time I do, people who hold opinions like yours use it as an excuse to turn it into a GNOME hate-fest flamewar and start harassing the developers, calling them shitty bad people who deserve to get their reputations trashed. That stuff is unacceptable. I'm serious here when I say this. In my opinion it's your attitude that's poisoning the well. And this is why I use a throwaway account to discuss this by the way. For whatever reason the moderators here think it's ok for this to be a place where trolls and conspiracy theorists run amok. I'm glad you have some good things to say about them but the toxic negativity really needs to end.