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> Your problem here is you're not focused on helping rebuild any of this social capital. You're trying to take more of it away and replace it with nothing. Gno

> Your problem here is you're not focused on helping rebuild any of this social capital. You're trying to take more of it away and replace it with nothing. Gnome as a project isn't entitled to that social capital, they have to earn it. >Instead think like a diplomat, think how you can help others reconsider and patch things up. The ball really is in gnome's court for this one. Some olive branched they could extend would be some kind of dconf setting to enable typeahead in the file picker, being able to double click the filepicker bread crumbs to show file paths (don't force me to learn gnome specific shortcuts for common functionality), or dozens of other small compromises that don't effect me personally. It's not my responsibility to be nice to Gnome, or to try to improve Gnome's reputation or community good will. >they're not in competition for anything. Maybe you think they're in competition for developer time, Did you read the thread? No one claimed Gnome and SDL/GLFW/Allegro were in competition. That would be insane, to try and say that the simple-directmedia-layer and a DE/gui-toolkit were in competition. You know who does the window handling for 99% of commercial games on linux? SDL. Also volunteer run. The SDL developers involved have some very concrete problems that they were trying to discuss civilly. The response from the maintainer? https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217#note_356808 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217#note_3568... You may think that's a reasonable response to a technical discussion involving like a half dozen maintainers of other open source software, but it's really not. It's a very rude response to a half dozen very maintainers of very prominent open source projects. SDL alone is a pretty big deal, if SDL is saying that your solution won't work for them then you listen, since basically all commercial application on linux use SDL. Ultimately libdecor was produced which solved this problem in a way that isn't really great, but is at least acceptable even if it makes all those developers do a bunch of extra work just for gnome. It's a compromise, it means that everybody needs to create an extra special solution just for Gnome and if any other DE tried that SDL would rightly tell them to frig off. You don't think that interaction had any affect on Gnome's good will? It may very well be why the steam deck shipped with KDE by default. Sure, maybe Gnome's image problem isn't their fault, maybe it's all bullshit and stuff taken out of context, but it's still their problem to solve and the first step is admitting they have a problem. >Think how you can give back social capital to everyone around you including those you disagree with. I don't think you understand what I mean by social capital. It means how much people respect the project, basically. How much good will Gnome has in the community. Gnome has, through their actions and decisions, lost my respect. They can earn that back, but it has to come from them. While we may not be forced to use it, they do throw their weight around and have significant effects on the open source community as a whole, so when they break stuff for people who don't even use gnome that does earn them some enmity. And that's fine, they don't need my respect, or the respect of any of the other detractors in this thread. They can clearly get along fine without it. But you're acting like we all owe the Gnome project our respect, and that's something I really don't get. I do think it's recoverable for what it's worth, but stuff like that XDG-decoration thread and seeing how Matthias treated respected members of the open source community, completely disregarding their points and smugly refusing to engage in any technical discussion, well that burns lot of community good will.

QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
>Gnome as a project isn't entitled to that social capital, they have to earn it. It's evident that every time they earn some, the haters invent new reasons to take it away by creating a new meme about how terrible GNOME is. The old meme about thumbnails in the file picker finally got fixed and you're just as angry at them as ever. Do you understand why they won't ever waste time trying to "earn" things from a group that's perpetually unhappy? I wish you would do yourself a favor and leave that group, it's not a group that's focused on actually solving any problems. >The ball really is in gnome's court for this one. Some olive branched they could extend would be some kind of dconf setting to enable typeahead in the file picker No it's not in their court. It's completely in yours. This is all open source, so you can just implement that if you want it, or use one of the many patches floating around. GNOME developers aren't under any obligation to pick up random patches off the internet that would increase their own support burden just because someone keeps asking, you can take those for yourself if you really want to deal with the mess. Like, come on. At what point will you stop blaming them and take responsibility for your own choices? At what point would you ever accept "no" for an answer? If the answer is "never" then you should be able to understand, it's you who's refusing to compromise. >The SDL developers involved have some very concrete problems that they were trying to discuss civilly. The response from the maintainer? https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217#note_3568 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217#note_3568... That's a completely civil response based on facts. Core Wayland requires apps to support client decorations. The server side decorations are an optional extension. This hasn't changed in the four years since that response was posted. It makes no sense for you to be bringing this up again. >It's a very rude response to a half dozen very maintainers of very prominent open source projects. SDL alone is a pretty big deal, if SDL is saying that your solution won't work for them then you listen, since basically all commercial application on linux use SDL. No, nothing was rude about it. The only way I can interpret this attitude is "SDL is more important than you so they should get to strongarm everyone else into doing things the way they insist" and that's definitely a take. Is that what you meant? If that's true then you're saying SDL is the real bully, not GNOME. >it means that everybody needs to create an extra special solution just for Gnome and if any other DE tried that SDL would rightly tell them to frig off. It's not a special solution for GNOME, this is required by the core Wayland protocol. >You don't think that interaction had any affect on Gnome's good will? No, I think people who already had a negative opinion of GNOME and think GNOME is responsible for all evils in Linux would use that as fodder for their anger. If it wasn't that, they'd find something else to be mad and blame GNOME about. Like, my friend, you're doing it now. >While we may not be forced to use it, they do throw their weight around and have significant effects on the open source community as a whole, so when they break stuff for people who don't even use gnome No, every issue you've said so far only affects GNOME or GTK. >But you're acting like we all owe the Gnome project our respect, and that's something I really don't get. Yes, you do owe them some basic respect and dignity if you want them to cooperate with you. What's the part of this you don't get? Your disrespect is pointless and damaging to yourself because it's leading you to make nonsensical uninformed decisions and fail to understand other people's actual positions. If you have some disagreement with Matthias then you can talk it out with him like a human being and offer to help, instead of trash talking behind someone's back. These developers are real people you know? They're not code-writing robots who all obey a hive mind. I can guarantee you're not seeing the full picture here. If your reaction to this is "no, I will never talk to those evil GNOME developers until they fulfill my list of demands" then again, please consider that it's you who's being the unreasonable one. >but stuff like that XDG-decoration thread and seeing how Matthias treated respected members of the open source community, completely disregarding their points and smugly refusing to engage in any technical discussion There's no technical discussion to be had and no one was being smug or treating anyone badly. You're shooting the messenger. Again, this is required by the core Wayland protocol. You can be upset about this but the decision was already made years prior by other people outside of GNOME's control. GNOME can't change the core Wayland protocol because that would break existing apps. I'm telling you right now. The thing you're asking for is unreasonable. If you keep making this request, you'll only end up disappointed and you'll just piss more people off for no reason. Please approach this from a different angle and avoid the trap of saying "these developers are always right and must be listened to but these other developers are always wrong and must never be listened to" because that's what you're getting into and I think you're smart enough to see that's obviously a toxic way to think about anything.

QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago

>Gnome as a project isn't entitled to that social capital, they have to earn it. It's evident that every time they earn some, the haters invent new reasons to take it away by creating a new meme about how terrible GNOME is. The old meme about thumbnails in the file picker finally got fixed and you're just as angry at them as ever. Do you understand why they won't ever waste time trying to "earn" things from a group that's perpetually unhappy? I wish you would do yourself a favor and leave that group, it's not a group that's focused on actually solving any problems. >The ball really is in gnome's court for this one. Some olive branched they could extend would be some kind of dconf setting to enable typeahead in the file picker No it's not in their court. It's completely in yours. This is all open source, so you can just implement that if you want it, or use one of the many patches floating around. GNOME developers aren't under any obligation to pick up random patches off the internet that would increase their own support burden just because someone keeps asking, you can take those for yourself if you really want to deal with the mess. Like, come on. At what point will you stop blaming them and take responsibility for your own choices? At what point would you ever accept "no" for an answer? If the answer is "never" then you should be able to understand, it's you who's refusing to compromise. >The SDL developers involved have some very concrete problems that they were trying to discuss civilly. The response from the maintainer? https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217#note_3568 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217#note_3568... That's a completely civil response based on facts. Core Wayland requires apps to support client decorations. The server side decorations are an optional extension. This hasn't changed in the four years since that response was posted. It makes no sense for you to be bringing this up again. >It's a very rude response to a half dozen very maintainers of very prominent open source projects. SDL alone is a pretty big deal, if SDL is saying that your solution won't work for them then you listen, since basically all commercial application on linux use SDL. No, nothing was rude about it. The only way I can interpret this attitude is "SDL is more important than you so they should get to strongarm everyone else into doing things the way they insist" and that's definitely a take. Is that what you meant? If that's true then you're saying SDL is the real bully, not GNOME. >it means that everybody needs to create an extra special solution just for Gnome and if any other DE tried that SDL would rightly tell them to frig off. It's not a special solution for GNOME, this is required by the core Wayland protocol. >You don't think that interaction had any affect on Gnome's good will? No, I think people who already had a negative opinion of GNOME and think GNOME is responsible for all evils in Linux would use that as fodder for their anger. If it wasn't that, they'd find something else to be mad and blame GNOME about. Like, my friend, you're doing it now. >While we may not be forced to use it, they do throw their weight around and have significant effects on the open source community as a whole, so when they break stuff for people who don't even use gnome No, every issue you've said so far only affects GNOME or GTK. >But you're acting like we all owe the Gnome project our respect, and that's something I really don't get. Yes, you do owe them some basic respect and dignity if you want them to cooperate with you. What's the part of this you don't get? Your disrespect is pointless and damaging to yourself because it's leading you to make nonsensical uninformed decisions and fail to understand other people's actual positions. If you have some disagreement with Matthias then you can talk it out with him like a human being and offer to help, instead of trash talking behind someone's back. These developers are real people you know? They're not code-writing robots who all obey a hive mind. I can guarantee you're not seeing the full picture here. If your reaction to this is "no, I will never talk to those evil GNOME developers until they fulfill my list of demands" then again, please consider that it's you who's being the unreasonable one. >but stuff like that XDG-decoration thread and seeing how Matthias treated respected members of the open source community, completely disregarding their points and smugly refusing to engage in any technical discussion There's no technical discussion to be had and no one was being smug or treating anyone badly. You're shooting the messenger. Again, this is required by the core Wayland protocol. You can be upset about this but the decision was already made years prior by other people outside of GNOME's control. GNOME can't change the core Wayland protocol because that would break existing apps. I'm telling you right now. The thing you're asking for is unreasonable. If you keep making this request, you'll only end up disappointed and you'll just piss more people off for no reason. Please approach this from a different angle and avoid the trap of saying "these developers are always right and must be listened to but these other developers are always wrong and must never be listened to" because that's what you're getting into and I think you're smart enough to see that's obviously a toxic way to think about anything.