20 ms·

Is Ireland Still Ireland?

28 points by hunglee2 4y ago

esharte 4y ago
[flagged]
- morninglight 4y ago
  Agree!! I know the real Ireland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klrS-1zznR0&list=PLQTAXw5ECeFJWpoe9tlUkC8_QWiCkhWVj https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klrS-1zznR0&list=PLQTAXw5ECe...
- whythre 4y ago
  Care to explain why? I skimmed it but don’t have much knowledge about the Irish Catholic/Protestant situation.
scoofy 4y ago
I mean... I stopped reading after the first dozen paragraphs... because I hate the reductionist logic here. I am neither irish, nor and expert in irish history (though I actively listen to a pretty thorough podcast about it), but I am a philosopher by training, and this read like big fat True Scotsman logic. Perhaps the author misdirects in the opening (I hope so), but they seem to be caught in the reductionist culture=identity trope that much my home country of America suffers from. Examples here include absurdisms like "Obama isn't black enough" as if a black man isn't black if he doesn't act a certain way. Many cultures are built in opposition to other cultures, yes, and while that is true, the entire of culture is that it's made up of the people within it. When that starts to change, it just changes, it doesn't go away. In my life America went from being known for it's light lagers, now it is know for over hopping all our beers. We went from Safeway to Trader Joe's being the dominate grocery chances. Is America not America? No! Is California more Californian? No! Culture is the culture that the people in the culture choose to celebrate. There are no True Scotsmans, only Scotsmans, who occasionally disagree. Ireland is the people in it. If they change their religion, and their national sport and drink, then they will be a different Ireland than they were, but they will still be Ireland so long as people identify as Irish.
- pas 4y ago
  Obama is very far from the "median black guy", but it's irrelevant, especially since both median Londoner and Dubliner shifted towards the median NYer...
  - dehugger 4y ago
    How does the median relate to the whole? If someone is far from the median Texan do the stop being a Texan? If a Korean person loves and emulates French culture do they stop being Korean? If a white person grows up in a heavily Chinese neighborhood and subscribes to the culture they grew up with are they less white? The idea that drifting from the median of a given ethnic/cultural group invalidates you as a member of that group is disturbing. Doubly so with race.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - pas 4y ago
      the median matters as in most distributions that's what others will see as "representative" of the whole population. Unfortunately with our amazing engagement-maximizing hate machines like Twitter/Facebook/FoxNews (and their older, but still generally fucked up kin, 0-24 news cycle, MSM, Hollywood) what people think of other people can be very distorted, but there are trends that percolate through. The original post basically has a claim that "Ireland is more like UK now than it is like old Ireland", which is true, but it doesn't explicitly talk about how "UK is also not like old UK". (Those London inspired bars are themselves inspired by NY bars.) It just mentions how Irish cultural politics is American. > The idea that drifting from the median of a given ethnic/cultural group invalidates you as a member of that group is disturbing. Doubly so with race. .. yeah. and ... nobody said that.
  - scoofy 4y ago
    Again, my very point is that caring, at all, about median-ness of a person when it comes to identity, is very much a True Scotsman game. It is reversing the directionality between an identity and a cultural norm, and redefining the identity by the norm, instead of the other way around. Lots of people do that, many as a proxy for a completely different argument, but lots of people also do lots of things that aren't sound reasoning.
dralley 4y ago
Surely the abuse scandals played a role in the de-Catholicization
- jimlongton 4y ago
  The linked site appears to be run mostly by American Catholic activists in their early 20s. I doubt they know anything about the reality of Catholicism in Ireland. I'm Irish and I've never heard of the author either. If he thinks Ireland is still mainly Catholic or that the Church is still widely respected or influential he must be living in another reality.
  - astrange 4y ago
    A funny thing about American Catholic converts I've met is that they seem to decide they're more Catholic than the Pope on day 2. You can't take the Protestant out of a Protestant apparently, even if they want to do everything in Latin.
    - wahern 4y ago
      This is a common phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeal_of_the_convert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeal_of_the_convert (Or at least the perception is common.)
      - astrange 4y ago
        There is that, but I meant literally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism. As in they think they are Catholic and the pope is not Catholic. And so seem to have missed the point that listening to that guy is basically the point of joining up.
        wahern 4y ago
        > And so seem to have missed the point that listening to that guy is basically the point of joining up. That would be news to a lot of Catholics, myself included.
knolan 4y ago
Ireland grew up. I’m immensely proud of what my country has achieved in so few years. We’ve transferred ourselves from an impoverished theocracy to a thriving secular and increasingly liberal European peer. Many people my age (and younger) who left Ireland during the Great Recession are now returning and they being so much with them. Many people of my generation were educated in schools dominated by the Catholic Church. There was no better way to show these kids the reasons why the church has no place in running our society and I’m happy to see their influence in education weakening every year. We still have many problems here but they are the problems of a modern country that many other developed nations face. We’ve grown up.
- _nalply 4y ago
  Being off-topic: I plan to travel to Ireland the spring (from Switzerland). Do you have suggestions?
  - __warlord__ 4y ago
    Galway for sure!
  - knolan 4y ago
    It’s relatively affordable to hire a car here. Public transport isn’t great. The west is particularly picturesque, as said Galway is great. Kerry and West Cork are very touristy but beautiful. What would you like to do?
  - _nalply 4y ago
    Thanks, then Galway it is. Kerry and West Cork, too. Are the Skellig islands worth it?
    - darraghenright 4y ago
      The Skelligs are a must see in my opinion but be aware that visits are seasonal and quite restricted. If memory serves they don't start until about May. Then you roll the dice, if you get a booking (most boats leave from Ballinskelligs, Co. Kerry) be prepared to be thwarted by the weather, sea conditions can make for a hectic swell all the way out there and it's not uncommon for sailings to get cancelled as a result. I think I got out there on my third attempt. Worth trying though, it's a magical place.
rospaya 4y ago
Luke Kelly of the Dubliners wrote a poem with the same question, but focused more on the globalization and foreign investments that made Ireland what it is today. https://genius.com/Luke-kelly-for-what-died-the-sons-of-roisin-poem-lyrics https://genius.com/Luke-kelly-for-what-died-the-sons-of-rois...
alamortsubite 4y ago
As an outsider, I had a tough time getting through the article, but what's interesting to me is how modernization and the decline of Catholicism in the Republic seems to be dovetailing with the (especially acute) fiasco of Brexit in the North. Will this be the tipping point toward Irish reunification?

28 points by hunglee2 4y ago

esharte 4y ago

[flagged]

morninglight 4y ago
Agree!! I know the real Ireland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klrS-1zznR0&list=PLQTAXw5ECeFJWpoe9tlUkC8_QWiCkhWVj https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klrS-1zznR0&list=PLQTAXw5ECe...
whythre 4y ago
Care to explain why? I skimmed it but don’t have much knowledge about the Irish Catholic/Protestant situation.

scoofy 4y ago

I mean... I stopped reading after the first dozen paragraphs... because I hate the reductionist logic here. I am neither irish, nor and expert in irish history (though I actively listen to a pretty thorough podcast about it), but I am a philosopher by training, and this read like big fat True Scotsman logic. Perhaps the author misdirects in the opening (I hope so), but they seem to be caught in the reductionist culture=identity trope that much my home country of America suffers from. Examples here include absurdisms like "Obama isn't black enough" as if a black man isn't black if he doesn't act a certain way. Many cultures are built in opposition to other cultures, yes, and while that is true, the entire of culture is that it's made up of the people within it. When that starts to change, it just changes, it doesn't go away. In my life America went from being known for it's light lagers, now it is know for over hopping all our beers. We went from Safeway to Trader Joe's being the dominate grocery chances. Is America not America? No! Is California more Californian? No! Culture is the culture that the people in the culture choose to celebrate. There are no True Scotsmans, only Scotsmans, who occasionally disagree. Ireland is the people in it. If they change their religion, and their national sport and drink, then they will be a different Ireland than they were, but they will still be Ireland so long as people identify as Irish.

pas 4y ago
Obama is very far from the "median black guy", but it's irrelevant, especially since both median Londoner and Dubliner shifted towards the median NYer...
- dehugger 4y ago
  How does the median relate to the whole? If someone is far from the median Texan do the stop being a Texan? If a Korean person loves and emulates French culture do they stop being Korean? If a white person grows up in a heavily Chinese neighborhood and subscribes to the culture they grew up with are they less white? The idea that drifting from the median of a given ethnic/cultural group invalidates you as a member of that group is disturbing. Doubly so with race.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - pas 4y ago
    the median matters as in most distributions that's what others will see as "representative" of the whole population. Unfortunately with our amazing engagement-maximizing hate machines like Twitter/Facebook/FoxNews (and their older, but still generally fucked up kin, 0-24 news cycle, MSM, Hollywood) what people think of other people can be very distorted, but there are trends that percolate through. The original post basically has a claim that "Ireland is more like UK now than it is like old Ireland", which is true, but it doesn't explicitly talk about how "UK is also not like old UK". (Those London inspired bars are themselves inspired by NY bars.) It just mentions how Irish cultural politics is American. > The idea that drifting from the median of a given ethnic/cultural group invalidates you as a member of that group is disturbing. Doubly so with race. .. yeah. and ... nobody said that.
- scoofy 4y ago
  Again, my very point is that caring, at all, about median-ness of a person when it comes to identity, is very much a True Scotsman game. It is reversing the directionality between an identity and a cultural norm, and redefining the identity by the norm, instead of the other way around. Lots of people do that, many as a proxy for a completely different argument, but lots of people also do lots of things that aren't sound reasoning.

dralley 4y ago

Surely the abuse scandals played a role in the de-Catholicization

jimlongton 4y ago
The linked site appears to be run mostly by American Catholic activists in their early 20s. I doubt they know anything about the reality of Catholicism in Ireland. I'm Irish and I've never heard of the author either. If he thinks Ireland is still mainly Catholic or that the Church is still widely respected or influential he must be living in another reality.
- astrange 4y ago
  A funny thing about American Catholic converts I've met is that they seem to decide they're more Catholic than the Pope on day 2. You can't take the Protestant out of a Protestant apparently, even if they want to do everything in Latin.
  - wahern 4y ago
    This is a common phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeal_of_the_convert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeal_of_the_convert (Or at least the perception is common.)
    - astrange 4y ago
      There is that, but I meant literally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism. As in they think they are Catholic and the pope is not Catholic. And so seem to have missed the point that listening to that guy is basically the point of joining up.
      - wahern 4y ago
        > And so seem to have missed the point that listening to that guy is basically the point of joining up. That would be news to a lot of Catholics, myself included.

knolan 4y ago

Ireland grew up. I’m immensely proud of what my country has achieved in so few years. We’ve transferred ourselves from an impoverished theocracy to a thriving secular and increasingly liberal European peer. Many people my age (and younger) who left Ireland during the Great Recession are now returning and they being so much with them. Many people of my generation were educated in schools dominated by the Catholic Church. There was no better way to show these kids the reasons why the church has no place in running our society and I’m happy to see their influence in education weakening every year. We still have many problems here but they are the problems of a modern country that many other developed nations face. We’ve grown up.

_nalply 4y ago
Being off-topic: I plan to travel to Ireland the spring (from Switzerland). Do you have suggestions?
- __warlord__ 4y ago
  Galway for sure!
- knolan 4y ago
  It’s relatively affordable to hire a car here. Public transport isn’t great. The west is particularly picturesque, as said Galway is great. Kerry and West Cork are very touristy but beautiful. What would you like to do?
- _nalply 4y ago
  Thanks, then Galway it is. Kerry and West Cork, too. Are the Skellig islands worth it?
  - darraghenright 4y ago
    The Skelligs are a must see in my opinion but be aware that visits are seasonal and quite restricted. If memory serves they don't start until about May. Then you roll the dice, if you get a booking (most boats leave from Ballinskelligs, Co. Kerry) be prepared to be thwarted by the weather, sea conditions can make for a hectic swell all the way out there and it's not uncommon for sailings to get cancelled as a result. I think I got out there on my third attempt. Worth trying though, it's a magical place.

rospaya 4y ago

Luke Kelly of the Dubliners wrote a poem with the same question, but focused more on the globalization and foreign investments that made Ireland what it is today. https://genius.com/Luke-kelly-for-what-died-the-sons-of-roisin-poem-lyrics https://genius.com/Luke-kelly-for-what-died-the-sons-of-rois...

alamortsubite 4y ago

As an outsider, I had a tough time getting through the article, but what's interesting to me is how modernization and the decline of Catholicism in the Republic seems to be dovetailing with the (especially acute) fiasco of Brexit in the North. Will this be the tipping point toward Irish reunification?