6 ms·

Ooooooh I have a burning hate for this system (the dislike is rational, the burning part is not entirely rational but justified). Way back in high school my AP

Ooooooh I have a burning hate for this system (the dislike is rational, the burning part is not entirely rational but justified). Way back in high school my AP history teacher not only taught us this (cool, that's part of his job) and checked that we were able to do it (reasonable), he required us to submit notes in this exact format, for every reading, all year, which he graded. After I determined that my comprehension and retention rate went down as a result of having to constantly interrupt my reading to follow the format, I stopped doing them and he got big mad that I was still doing great on all his tests using my own strategies. With a >90% test average he still gave me a C– in the class and tried to pressure me to cancel my AP exam and take a partial refund for it. I got a 4. (For the non-US folks: that's a 4 on a 5-point scale and generally means it will count for university credit, as indeed it did for me.) When I visited on a schoolday the next year, he saw me in the hallway and had the tremendous arrogance to ask me to pop into his class and tell them how much the notes helped. I was too unconfident at that point to do more than politely decline to do so, but modern me probably would have accepted the offer and then told the class exactly what I thought of them.... If they work for you, great! But no system is perfect for everyone. Assess what works for you, jettison the stuff that's wasting your time. ETA: This episode did teach me something very important, which was that as a teacher, when I'm teaching techniques if I think it's important enough I can require students to learn the technique and assess whether they are able to do it, but then I let them decide whether to use it in general or find something better.

HideousKojima 4y ago
My middle school and high school required Cornell notes, and they were a huge pain in the ass. Never used them since.
mindcrime 4y ago
I'm reminded of a couple of my favorite quotes: "Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it." "Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless and add what is specifically your own" ~~ Bruce Lee
- ghaff 4y ago
  That describes a lot of the systems I've encountered perhaps especially in the productivity area such as GTD. Are there some specific good ideas? Yep. Adopt the whole system religiously? That would be a big no.
xp84 4y ago
wow, grading the notes is terrible! If they helped you enough to get a good grade, penalizing you is ridiculous! Conversely if your "bad" notes are why you have a bad grade, knocking it down further seems almost spiteful!
charles_f 4y ago
> pressure me to cancel my AP exam and take a partial refund for it Having done my studies in Europe, I'm wondering how much additional anxiety having this kind of pecuniary questions you can get. Discussing a refund if you fail a course sounds so alien to me
- ip26 4y ago
  The AP exam is uncoupled from the course and belongs to a different organization. If you fail the school course you probably won’t pass the exam.
hattmall 4y ago
My entire school did this. We even got a special notebook thing that had the pages laid out and also had other organizational stuff in it. The notebook and the notes in it were what we got graded on. No homework, no tests, we weren't really expected to study the notes, just take them. There were some other activities that involved the notes though at school, semi regular group and class discussions and we would reference notes. I also seem to remember teachers giving us notes too. Like after our notes from the previous day were graded they would handout a set of notes that were the ideal notes. I actually liked it, we only had 4 classes per day that were 90 minutes each and two of them were non-academic like PE, Band or Autoshop. Then if you were doing poorly you could come in early or late for zero and fifth block which were a 1 hour condensed recap of your previous academic classes. It also wasn't setup by grade so you could have all years in the same class even though most had a majority of one grade. It was a bad school though, an hour to get through metal detectors, ID had to be work facing outward at all times in an acceptable position. There was no being late or tardy either. The doors locked when the bell rang and no one could be in the halls without a security escort. If you did leave class to go to the bathroom you couldn't go back. Even still there were shootings. No bookbags were allowed so we didn't have take home books unless we were reading one in class like Malcolm X biography or the caged bird.
- yummypaint 4y ago
  I also seem to remember teachers giving us notes too. I really wish more instructors would make their lecture notes available before class. It can save a tremendous amount of overhead to just write annotations and small additions to existing notes. Instead of mindlessly writing there is time to actually think. Some people are weirld cagey about this even though they already have their lecture notes for the semester sitting on their desk.
  - tzs 4y ago
    Isn't there quite a lot of research that shows that what makes note taking during lectures effective for helping you learn the material is the thought required to condense the material down to something you can write down while still keeping up with the lecture?
maxbond 4y ago
Elementary Middle, and High School has a way of putting teachers in the role of authoritarian minders, expected to enforce the pettiest standards, that really damages pedagogy. The tools to control your behavior become the tools they use to do their job, and then their job becomes controlling your behavior rather than teaching you. I had similar experiences like this throughout my pre-college education. I think it's a big part of why people get to college and find they actually enjoy school/learning, they may do better in their classes or feel smarter, et cetera. (Of course there are professors who are petty authoritarians as well, but I think the parties are better aligned in general, and you're more empowered to drop classes/choose professors.)

HideousKojima 4y ago

My middle school and high school required Cornell notes, and they were a huge pain in the ass. Never used them since.

mindcrime 4y ago

I'm reminded of a couple of my favorite quotes: "Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it." "Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless and add what is specifically your own" ~~ Bruce Lee

ghaff 4y ago
That describes a lot of the systems I've encountered perhaps especially in the productivity area such as GTD. Are there some specific good ideas? Yep. Adopt the whole system religiously? That would be a big no.

xp84 4y ago

wow, grading the notes is terrible! If they helped you enough to get a good grade, penalizing you is ridiculous! Conversely if your "bad" notes are why you have a bad grade, knocking it down further seems almost spiteful!

charles_f 4y ago

> pressure me to cancel my AP exam and take a partial refund for it Having done my studies in Europe, I'm wondering how much additional anxiety having this kind of pecuniary questions you can get. Discussing a refund if you fail a course sounds so alien to me

ip26 4y ago
The AP exam is uncoupled from the course and belongs to a different organization. If you fail the school course you probably won’t pass the exam.

hattmall 4y ago

My entire school did this. We even got a special notebook thing that had the pages laid out and also had other organizational stuff in it. The notebook and the notes in it were what we got graded on. No homework, no tests, we weren't really expected to study the notes, just take them. There were some other activities that involved the notes though at school, semi regular group and class discussions and we would reference notes. I also seem to remember teachers giving us notes too. Like after our notes from the previous day were graded they would handout a set of notes that were the ideal notes. I actually liked it, we only had 4 classes per day that were 90 minutes each and two of them were non-academic like PE, Band or Autoshop. Then if you were doing poorly you could come in early or late for zero and fifth block which were a 1 hour condensed recap of your previous academic classes. It also wasn't setup by grade so you could have all years in the same class even though most had a majority of one grade. It was a bad school though, an hour to get through metal detectors, ID had to be work facing outward at all times in an acceptable position. There was no being late or tardy either. The doors locked when the bell rang and no one could be in the halls without a security escort. If you did leave class to go to the bathroom you couldn't go back. Even still there were shootings. No bookbags were allowed so we didn't have take home books unless we were reading one in class like Malcolm X biography or the caged bird.

yummypaint 4y ago
I also seem to remember teachers giving us notes too. I really wish more instructors would make their lecture notes available before class. It can save a tremendous amount of overhead to just write annotations and small additions to existing notes. Instead of mindlessly writing there is time to actually think. Some people are weirld cagey about this even though they already have their lecture notes for the semester sitting on their desk.
- tzs 4y ago
  Isn't there quite a lot of research that shows that what makes note taking during lectures effective for helping you learn the material is the thought required to condense the material down to something you can write down while still keeping up with the lecture?

maxbond 4y ago

Elementary Middle, and High School has a way of putting teachers in the role of authoritarian minders, expected to enforce the pettiest standards, that really damages pedagogy. The tools to control your behavior become the tools they use to do their job, and then their job becomes controlling your behavior rather than teaching you. I had similar experiences like this throughout my pre-college education. I think it's a big part of why people get to college and find they actually enjoy school/learning, they may do better in their classes or feel smarter, et cetera. (Of course there are professors who are petty authoritarians as well, but I think the parties are better aligned in general, and you're more empowered to drop classes/choose professors.)