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College that fired prof for showing image of Muhammad could lose accreditation
- ftopas 4y ago[flagged]
- jibink 4y ago[flagged]
- make3 4y agoI'm curious if the direction were themselves Muslim, as this was a pretty brash decision, or if it was out of misguided progressiveness, thinking they were protecting freedom of religion when they're instead breaking freedom of expression
- jupp0r 4y agoNothing about this is progressive, in fact it is quite statist.
- throwayyy479087 4y agoProgressivism believes in significantly expanding the role of the state. Social housing, medicare4all, Title IX. It’s diametrically opposed to libertarianism.
- jupp0r 4y agoThe state has no role in this story. This is about a private university firing a private person. "Progressivism arose during the Age of Enlightenment out of the belief that civility in Europe was improving due to the application of new empirical knowledge to the governance of society." according to Wikipedia
- make3 4y agoprogressive in protecting everyone's freedom of religion, which is a good idea in theory but the application here is over zealous
- jupp0r 4y agoThis also has nothing to do with freedom of religion. Freedom of religion is not the freedom to impose your religious beliefs upon other people, nor is it a right of preventing other people's speech offending you religiously. It merely means that you can practice your religion freely without being prevented from doing so.
- anonyfox 4y agoWhat is „progressive“ about firing someone over potential feelings of people believing in some medieval fairytales?
- make3 4y agofreedom of religion in a mostly Christian nation is a start imho, progressive in the acceptation of differences. even if here it goes too far
- throwawayacc3 4y agoIt's extremely "progressive". This is expected behavior for leftist baizuos. So common it's become a meme [0]. [0] https://img.ifunny.co/images/e73e5a1bb4730d79965d1a4860878e52ab457a7941435600c8e4ea628d85430e_1.jpg https://img.ifunny.co/images/e73e5a1bb4730d79965d1a4860878e5...
- hourago 4y ago> I'm curious if they were themselves Muslim, or if it was out of misguided progressiveness You can satisfy your curiosity by reading the article. > However, one student in class that day—the president of Hamline's Muslim Student Association—took offense, complaining first to the professor, and then to school administrators.
- KyeRussell 4y agoOverzealous religious sensitivity obviously vastly pre-dates the culture that you’re pretty clearly critiquing here. Please read the article instead of indulging in the culture wars.
- make3 4y agowhat?! I just assume that people tend to defend their own religion more intensely, whatever it is. & I think that protecting everyone's right to religion is a good thing, just that here it went too far
- NKosmatos 4y agoIt all has to do with Islamic Aniconism (avoidance of images): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Islam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Islam That’s the problem with all religions that have (strict/ancient/silly/unsubstantiated) orthodox rules: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodoxy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodoxy
- cdot2 4y agoCatholicism has pretty strict orthodox rules and yet has no issue with images
- puffoflogic 4y agoConvenient for the power of the curia during their long era of power, given that scripture has pretty explicit prohibitions on worshipping images.
- cdot2 4y agoCatholic orthodoxy doesn't have an issue with imagery. Clearly you have a different interpretation of scripture than the church.
- 4ad 4y agoMany christian denominations have issues with depiction of saints. Just because one of them doesn't shows how farcical the whole thing is and how haughty one's church acts over another. Plus the whole catholicism being "the chuch" thing.
- TeMPOraL 4y agoCatholic orthodoxy is like "European right-wing" on the US political scale: i.e. not very. Catholic Church accumulated a significant amount of tradition and writings on top of the scriptures, so its take on the Bible itself is kind of like what C++20 standard is to K&R C. I mean, the Church is old; there are turning events in western history triggered by and named after disputes about the Church's adherence to the scriptures.
- jupp0r 4y agoBetter labor protection laws could have prevented this. I wonder if it's possible to still sue the university for firing them because of their speech.
- err4nt 4y agoUnless people are forced against their will to attend school, and this institution specifically, and this course or class specifically, with no option to not attend school, to not attend this institution, to not take this course or class - isn't showing islamic art history in an islamic art history class precisely what all those present have chosen to pay to receive?
- nine_k 4y agoApparently they paid to receive that course, but were not happy with it: > However, one student in class that day—the president of Hamline's Muslim Student Association—took offense, complaining first to the professor, and then to school administrators. Then the paradox of tolerance [1] kicks in, and one offended guy forces everyone to comply (likely with silent support from other like-minded guys). [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
- nhchris 4y agoIs it really a paradox? If intolerant [1] societies become tolerant despite not only letting the intolerant speak, but with intolerance the dominant ideology, then surely a tolerant society can remain tolerant while allowing intolerant speech, because the arguments in favor of tolerance are so much more persuasive. In clearer terms, if society has progressed from state A to state B while X was allowed, how can the paradox of tolerance then claim that, unless X is banned, society will inevitably go back from state B to state A? If X was such a strong driver towards state A, state B never would have been reached in the first place. Unless of course this is cover for those that get to define what is intolerant [2] to act as censors and push the Overton window in whatever direction they please. [1] 'Tolerant' or 'intolerant' on whatever axis you want. [2] Is it intolerant to be inconsiderate of other religions? Or are those religions intolerant for insisting their taboos be upheld by others? What about describing other religions in terms that may lead to 'hate'? What if those descriptions are factual? When are you drawing attention to legitimate intersectional privilege that enables abuse and oppression, and when are you unfairly targeting a group based on protected characteristics?
- ugh123 4y agoAs noted in the article, this is no different than teaching evolution to a bunch of evangelical students who are offended by it. Absurd woke-ism strikes again!
- NKosmatos 4y agoHey, what about Pastafarians? I think they would also get offended by this “myth” of evolution, it’s well known that the universe was created by the FSM :-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
- ugh123 4y agoWe must forbid the cooking of pasta on all college campuses, and fire any chefs who dare try
- yumraj 4y ago> Absurd woke-ism strikes again! On the contrary, it seems to be the opposite of woke-ism.
- ugh123 4y agoHow?
- ProjectArcturis 4y agoWhy, as a society, do we choose to privilege certain beliefs, but only as long as they fall under the category of "religion"?
- colechristensen 4y agoThe foundation of your worldview is more important than your position on a random topic. And the privileged position of religion comes from a time where the punishment for not following the local approved worldview was anything up to a long torturous death, which didn’t tend to happen for other kinds of beliefs.
- kube-system 4y agoNot all societies do. The US does because many of those who founded it did not want their religious beliefs interfered with by any political powers.
- williamcotton 4y agoNo, the founders did not want the Federal government to interfere with the religions of the states. States at the time of the revolution had and maintained after the Constitution was ratified such things as religious tests for holding office. It’s only after the 14th Amendment and the incorporation of the 1st that this began to apply to State governments as well.
- remote_phone 4y agoThey do as long as it’s not Christianity.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- criddell 4y agoI think I heard it in a podcast once, but I’ve forgotten which one and haven’t been able to track down the source again. The idea was basically this: The first amendment of the constitution is written so that each part is dependent on the previous parts. Religion is protected because religion is what you think and believe. Next speech is protected. It’s listed after religion because what you say is determined by what you think. Freedom of the press protects what you say widely. Next the right to assemble is protected because what you write in the press may inspire groups to form to petition the government for change which is the final item.
- 2devnull 4y agoIslamophobic?! It obviously wasn’t islamophobic enough. What an inversion of meaning. They should have just said “offensive and hurtful to Muslims” and left it at that. They can complain, but they don’t get to change the meaning of language.
- KyeRussell 4y agoYou are…over a decade late to that fight.
- toomim 4y agoI expect the term "phobic" to revert to its original meaning over the next 40 years, especially if we continue to call out the hypocrisy in its usage.
- johnchristopher 4y agoIt's pet peeve of mine to regularly declare in conversations that words don't mean anything anymore. Sometimes I am charitable and concede that they mean to the person speaking them whatever they are feeling.
- MiguelX413 4y agoSemantic shift is natural and inevitable.
- toomim 4y agoThe term "phobos" is from Ancient Greek, and has been an integral part of our language for at least 3,000 years. That's a lot more staying power than the recent 5-year trend.
- MiguelX413 4y agoIt's dishonest to call it a recent 5-year trend.
- daltonlp 4y agoRelevant take by Ken White: https://popehat.substack.com/p/hamline-university-and-cancel-culture https://popehat.substack.com/p/hamline-university-and-cancel...
- cafard 4y ago"whose title I am unable to read without rolling my eyes". Worth reading for that alone.
- kemayo 4y ago"Could lose accreditation" is a stretch -- all this article is doing is repackaging a press release saying that someone wrote a sternly worded letter. To an institution that was almost certainly already aware of what was happening, since I've seen this story in the news a few times already. At that, the press release said they submitted it through the accreditor's website, which I have looked up[1], and which very explicitly says that "HLC does not: Accept complaints from third parties". Which suggests that this is very much a PR move by FIRE, and HLC's default reaction to it is going to be ignoring it unless FIRE is now actually representing someone involved. (None of this is meant to imply that I think the college has done anything approaching the right thing in this case, from everything I've heard about the story...) [1]: https://www.hlcommission.org/Students-Communities/complaints.html https://www.hlcommission.org/Students-Communities/complaints...
- rahimnathwani 4y agoIts policy on complaints[0] states (emphasis mine): HLC, *aware of the value of information from the public*, shall review complaints regarding a member institution’s ability to meet the Criteria for Accreditation or other HLC requirements in a timely, fair, and equitable manner. The complaint process is intended to address only those matters that suggest substantive non-compliance. If a member of the public submits a complaint about a broader issue (the college not protecting academic freedom) and not a specific incident (this one), then it seems like HLC would treat it as information from the public, without requiring standing (as a party involved in a specific incident). [0] https://www.hlcommission.org/Policies/complaints-and-other-information-regarding-institutions.html https://www.hlcommission.org/Policies/complaints-and-other-i...
- insickness 4y agoI donate to FIRE and support most of what they do but I disagree with their position here. I don't like that the professor got fired for this but as a private institution, Hamlin has their own right to mediate speech as they see fit. Go ahead and heap bad press on them and let the market sort it out.
- josephcsible 4y agoIsn't the Higher Learning Commission (Hamline's accreditor) also private? Isn't it within their First Amendment rights to do this too? Why should the argument "it's okay because it's legal" apply to the university but not to the professor or the accreditor?
- HarryHirsch 4y agoWTF? Hemline University claims to be a university in the Western tradition of universities and Western society in general. It can either fire the instructor but then ought to dissolve itself, or keep him and live on. It can't do both at the same time.
- mafuy 4y agoThe first word of that post was not necessary, but the rest I agree with. In particular, the article layed out that they are bound to freedom of speech by the "TOS" of the sponsor.
- qwertyuiop_ 4y ago[flagged]
- erenyeager 4y agoServes disrespectful orientalist “scholars” well to have their own corrupted ideologies used against them. Presuming to analyze and dissemble the “other” while it is only projection of their own misconceptions. Good job on Hamline for doing the right thing.
- jononomo 4y agoIt is important that all academics in America bow down to the dictates of Islam.
- bsaul 4y agoWelcome to hell. If you want to look at how this cultural clash between western modern civilisation and middle-eastern islamic one can go wrong, look at france. We’ve been at the forefront of this problem since the 1990s (because of our history with north africa), and we’re still struggling.
- remarkEon 4y agoFrom the university's own newspaper: >“Hamline teaches us it doesn’t matter the intent, the impact is what matters,” Huddleston said.[1] You reap what you sow. [1] https://hamlineoracle.com/10750/news/who-belongs/ https://hamlineoracle.com/10750/news/who-belongs/
- nashashmi 4y agoMuslims are sensitive to ascribing a graphical depiction to the prophet. And this sensitivity should be taken into consideration. We have taken such sensitivities when dealing with Jewish holidays and laws. However, the consequences of being insensitive should be more rational than simply firing. Here is an Islamic Art class and I can assume that this is not the first time a photo of the Prophet was displayed. If no one complained before as loudly as a student did now, the professor cannot be faulted. Second, what goes into an academic curriculum is not to be determined by the student. So if a student does complain, it needs to be reviewed by someone other than the professor and be directed from an administrative level. Lastly, this article is click bait. Prof fired, and complaint against the school was filed. Now there is speculation that the school can lose accreditation.
- StanislavPetrov 4y ago>And this sensitivity should be taken into consideration. No, it absolutely shouldn't. Those aspiring to higher education should be the ones who consider the fact that a central part of higher education is being exposed to ideas, images, arguments and other material that they will very likely find offensive. If they decide that they lack the emotional and/or mental capacity to be exposed to things that may offend them, then college isn't for them, and they are free not to attend. No college should cater to the mentally and/or emotionally disabled by altering their curriculum out of fear that someone may be offended.
- kashunstva 4y ago> Muslims are sensitive to ascribing a graphical depiction to the prophet. And this sensitivity should be taken into consideration. It was. The professor, knowing these sensitivities, warned the class in advance. Despite the warning, the offended student chose to attend the lecture anyway. The professor, sensing trouble, contacted her department chair who acknowledged she did everything right. It was only once the Muslim Student Association became involved that the dean and DEI leadership decided to throw the professor under the bus in the name of academic virtue signalling. There are many unfortunate parts of this sad affair. But certainly one is the alienation of allies who would otherwise be inclined toward cultural sensitivity had the university not taken such an extreme position. Although it may only be aspirational, the idea of proportional justice should undergird Western liberalism. This case shows the opposite is alive and well.