6 ms·

The same is going to happen to the (once) Great Salt Lake. It's going to be a disaster, the vast majority of the population of Utah lives along the Wasatch Fron

The same is going to happen to the (once) Great Salt Lake. It's going to be a disaster, the vast majority of the population of Utah lives along the Wasatch Front nextdoor and downwind from it, and all the heavy metals and toxic chemicals that are stably suspended in it from the Kennecott copper mine and the old Geneva Steel mills are going to turn into dust and go straight into their lungs. There's going to be a ton of cancer just like all the towns along the shores of the dried up Aral Sea

nickt 4y ago
Indeed. Here’s a discussion from yesterday for those who may have missed it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34276519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34276519
John23832 4y ago
And it's sad, because it can all be averted. A modern day Dust Bowl.
scythe 4y ago
It's not the first time this has happened in the United States: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owens_Lake http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owens_Lake
- pfdietz 4y ago
  It's not even the first time it's happened to the Aral Sea. https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv1kz4ggd.10 https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv1kz4ggd.10
LarryMullins 4y ago
While as far as I can tell the Great Salt Lake's level is presently severely low due to human actions, reconstructions of the historic level of the lake from tree ring analysis shows that the lake's natural level fluctuates substantially even when humans aren't doing anything to it. So even if water diversions stopped, the GSL area would still have a long-term problem on their hands. The toxic lake bed will get exposed one way or the other, if not through the actions of men then through natural fluctuations. Given that the lakebed is already contaminated and there's no way to fix that, the best solution is to live someplace else. > For example, the driest (wettest) year on record, 1581 (1464) occurred many centuries ago and was substantially larger in magnitude than the historical record. At lower frequencies, the GSL lake-level reconstruction revealed large, multi-year reductions in lake levels from 1580–1600, in the 1630s, and from 1700–1710 that in each case were at least as severe as the known lake-level minima during the drought of the 1930s and 2000–2001 (Figure 3). https://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/46447 https://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/46447 Incidentally, the "many centuries ago" framing is revealing of a general attitude I've noticed from Americans, particularly Americans living in the western half of the country. They think "several centuries" is essentially an eternity because in their region, several centuries ago is before recorded history. And in a sense, for an individual human planning their life, several centuries may as well be an eternity. But for city planning, an environmental problem that's likely to be disastrous for the city every few hundred years should be considered a severe threat. That sort of circumstance makes for a city that won't survive the test of time. Another example of this sort of short-term thinking is water levels in California. According to tree stump analysis, California has been unusually wet since America acquired the land; this luck will not last. California had, and will have again, droughts which are far more severe than any Californian drought in living memory. Californian communities should be planning to deal with such severe droughts, but many Californians seem to prefer believing that they can somehow stabilize the Californian climate to always be the way it was when they were kids.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  All of this is valid, but that doesn't mean humans aren't making it worse than it needs to be. "It fluctuates anyway" is a common talking point for those who want to deny the effect of human activity.
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    As I said: the Great Salt Lake's level is presently severely low due to human actions. Long-term thinking is possible, and two example that comes to mind are Tsunami Stones in Japan and Hunger Stones in Europe. After disastrous Tsunamis, people in Japan would sometimes inscribe rocks up on hills, warning people not to live near the water lower than the rock. And during severe droughts in Europe, large stones exposed in dry rivers would sometimes be inscribed with warning about famine; "If you see me, cry" Some of those stones are several hundred years old. America, particularly the western half, is substantially younger than many of these warning stones; the cultures inhabiting these regions today simply don't have much experience dealing with all the scenarios the land has to offer.
    - labster 4y ago
      This is the problem with science communication today. We can either be nuanced and the message can be taken whatever way a person wants to hear it, or we can be direct and people accuse you of ignoring nuance. As a first order approximation, the lakes are drying from diversions. At second order, its diversions, climatic variability, and AGW. In reality: what about the feedback from aquifer depletion, does evapotranspiration from crops offset this from increased rainfall, and to what degree compared to native biota? Natural systems have irreducible complexity that no one wants to hear about.
      - dmqctx 4y ago
        Can you phrase it another way beginning at "what about the feedback". I'm curious about your comment, especially your point on evapotranspiration.
- 4y ago
avgcorrection 4y ago
That’s terrible. Is the primary reason overconsumption from farming (70% of the consumption according to Yahoo News)? If so then I guess they could import more agricultural products. That’s easier than having most of the residents use less water. But another problem might be: where would the food come from? California also has a drought problem. I don’t know.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Quenty 4y ago
  The Midwest would be great. It’s right next door and the largest piece of arable land in the world.
  - IIsi50MHz 4y ago
    Water levels supporting much of midwest[1] farming and ranching have been dropping for decades, far faster than the refill rate. Even areas that have formed water-use co-operatives have been unable to convince themselves to reduce draw enough to matter. Even if they zeroed their usage, the co-ops don't cover enough land area to make up for the surrounding areas that are drawing from the same aquifer. [1] Leaving aside the cultural oddity of USA-ians who think the living not only east of centre, but as far east as any part of Ohio, counts as "midwest".
- yummypaint 4y ago
  Much agricultural use of water in the american west is intentionally wasteful to protect the farmer's future rights to use water. Farmers are afraid of losing a possible edge over their neighbors if they do the right thing. Not providing a legal mechanism to fix this, even during this worsening crisis, is an utter failure of our country.
madaxe_again 4y ago
I’ve been to a few of said towns - Aralsk is the most notable. It’s a forsaken place. Never mind the port machinery swinging idly in the hot, dusty breeze, suspended over toxic sludge where a sea once lapped its shores - the human disaster there is palpable. There’s no industry, no work, no future. People sit, and wait. The North Korean friendship centre hands out packages of household supplies on a dusty square full of dead trees. The place is half abandoned, and the people who remain - well, they’re abandoned too. It’s hard to describe the heaviness that sat over the place - it’s oppressive, a feeling of inexorable doom. It’s unlikely these places will exist in the not too distant future. They existed on the brink, and the brink is long gone, and they are in freefall.
elihu 4y ago
Apparently the great salt lake is also a huge magnesium source. There's a company called US Magnesium that takes salt water and routes it into a bunch of evaporation ponds.

nickt 4y ago

Indeed. Here’s a discussion from yesterday for those who may have missed it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34276519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34276519

John23832 4y ago

And it's sad, because it can all be averted. A modern day Dust Bowl.

scythe 4y ago

It's not the first time this has happened in the United States: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owens_Lake http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owens_Lake

pfdietz 4y ago
It's not even the first time it's happened to the Aral Sea. https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv1kz4ggd.10 https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv1kz4ggd.10

LarryMullins 4y ago

While as far as I can tell the Great Salt Lake's level is presently severely low due to human actions, reconstructions of the historic level of the lake from tree ring analysis shows that the lake's natural level fluctuates substantially even when humans aren't doing anything to it. So even if water diversions stopped, the GSL area would still have a long-term problem on their hands. The toxic lake bed will get exposed one way or the other, if not through the actions of men then through natural fluctuations. Given that the lakebed is already contaminated and there's no way to fix that, the best solution is to live someplace else. > For example, the driest (wettest) year on record, 1581 (1464) occurred many centuries ago and was substantially larger in magnitude than the historical record. At lower frequencies, the GSL lake-level reconstruction revealed large, multi-year reductions in lake levels from 1580–1600, in the 1630s, and from 1700–1710 that in each case were at least as severe as the known lake-level minima during the drought of the 1930s and 2000–2001 (Figure 3). https://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/46447 https://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/46447 Incidentally, the "many centuries ago" framing is revealing of a general attitude I've noticed from Americans, particularly Americans living in the western half of the country. They think "several centuries" is essentially an eternity because in their region, several centuries ago is before recorded history. And in a sense, for an individual human planning their life, several centuries may as well be an eternity. But for city planning, an environmental problem that's likely to be disastrous for the city every few hundred years should be considered a severe threat. That sort of circumstance makes for a city that won't survive the test of time. Another example of this sort of short-term thinking is water levels in California. According to tree stump analysis, California has been unusually wet since America acquired the land; this luck will not last. California had, and will have again, droughts which are far more severe than any Californian drought in living memory. Californian communities should be planning to deal with such severe droughts, but many Californians seem to prefer believing that they can somehow stabilize the Californian climate to always be the way it was when they were kids.

nerdponx 4y ago
All of this is valid, but that doesn't mean humans aren't making it worse than it needs to be. "It fluctuates anyway" is a common talking point for those who want to deny the effect of human activity.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  As I said: the Great Salt Lake's level is presently severely low due to human actions. Long-term thinking is possible, and two example that comes to mind are Tsunami Stones in Japan and Hunger Stones in Europe. After disastrous Tsunamis, people in Japan would sometimes inscribe rocks up on hills, warning people not to live near the water lower than the rock. And during severe droughts in Europe, large stones exposed in dry rivers would sometimes be inscribed with warning about famine; "If you see me, cry" Some of those stones are several hundred years old. America, particularly the western half, is substantially younger than many of these warning stones; the cultures inhabiting these regions today simply don't have much experience dealing with all the scenarios the land has to offer.
  - labster 4y ago
    This is the problem with science communication today. We can either be nuanced and the message can be taken whatever way a person wants to hear it, or we can be direct and people accuse you of ignoring nuance. As a first order approximation, the lakes are drying from diversions. At second order, its diversions, climatic variability, and AGW. In reality: what about the feedback from aquifer depletion, does evapotranspiration from crops offset this from increased rainfall, and to what degree compared to native biota? Natural systems have irreducible complexity that no one wants to hear about.
    - dmqctx 4y ago
      Can you phrase it another way beginning at "what about the feedback". I'm curious about your comment, especially your point on evapotranspiration.
4y ago

avgcorrection 4y ago

That’s terrible. Is the primary reason overconsumption from farming (70% of the consumption according to Yahoo News)? If so then I guess they could import more agricultural products. That’s easier than having most of the residents use less water. But another problem might be: where would the food come from? California also has a drought problem. I don’t know.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Quenty 4y ago
The Midwest would be great. It’s right next door and the largest piece of arable land in the world.
- IIsi50MHz 4y ago
  Water levels supporting much of midwest[1] farming and ranching have been dropping for decades, far faster than the refill rate. Even areas that have formed water-use co-operatives have been unable to convince themselves to reduce draw enough to matter. Even if they zeroed their usage, the co-ops don't cover enough land area to make up for the surrounding areas that are drawing from the same aquifer. [1] Leaving aside the cultural oddity of USA-ians who think the living not only east of centre, but as far east as any part of Ohio, counts as "midwest".
yummypaint 4y ago
Much agricultural use of water in the american west is intentionally wasteful to protect the farmer's future rights to use water. Farmers are afraid of losing a possible edge over their neighbors if they do the right thing. Not providing a legal mechanism to fix this, even during this worsening crisis, is an utter failure of our country.

madaxe_again 4y ago

I’ve been to a few of said towns - Aralsk is the most notable. It’s a forsaken place. Never mind the port machinery swinging idly in the hot, dusty breeze, suspended over toxic sludge where a sea once lapped its shores - the human disaster there is palpable. There’s no industry, no work, no future. People sit, and wait. The North Korean friendship centre hands out packages of household supplies on a dusty square full of dead trees. The place is half abandoned, and the people who remain - well, they’re abandoned too. It’s hard to describe the heaviness that sat over the place - it’s oppressive, a feeling of inexorable doom. It’s unlikely these places will exist in the not too distant future. They existed on the brink, and the brink is long gone, and they are in freefall.

elihu 4y ago

Apparently the great salt lake is also a huge magnesium source. There's a company called US Magnesium that takes salt water and routes it into a bunch of evaporation ponds.