4 ms·

Elaborate.

by lvass 4y ago

Elaborate.

colejohnson66 4y ago
I think they’re referencing how English grammar isn’t consistent, but at least C and C++ have a defined grammar (from the spec). Therefore, people bashing C and C++ should look in the mirror?
- pjmlp 4y ago
  No, actually referring to use of / in English grammar.
pjmlp 4y ago
Any reference to an English grammar will easily explain that / is an abbreviation for or. "The Proper Use of the Forward Slash in English" https://eslgrammar.org/forward-slash https://eslgrammar.org/forward-slash Thus C/C++ as in C or C++. On top of revealing lack of grammar knowledge, it also reveals lack of understanding of ISO papers, documentation from all companies with seat at ISO, their job boards, and major publications like the now gone "The C/C++ Users Journal".
- codeflo 4y ago
  English grammar is a red herring in this discussion. You would never claim that you bought a Ford/Toyota, or ate a pizza/banana.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Depends on the quality of speech.
    - tialaramex 4y ago
      Grice's Maxims apply. In many cases it's weird to have the "or" where we're otherwise very specific. "Wanna go get a burger/pasty ?" seems pretty reasonable if we happen to live somewhere that a burger or a pasty are reasonable food alternatives. Maybe there's a burger van parked on the corner, and there's also a shop that sells pasties. Pizza is food, but it's not an option here. "Wanna buy a house/chocolate bar ?" seems very weird. Why these specific alternatives? Do you live somewhere with a confectioner and a real estate business and nothing else? Even so, what sort of person isn't sure which of these things they would buy ? C/C++ is closer to the latter the more you know about both languages.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        Only when one is being pedantic about what it should mean. I rather point out how the companies that seat at ISO use it. After 10 months from my previous remark on the subject, with updated links. "C/C++ Engineer" @ NVidia https://nvidia.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/NVIDIAExternalCareerSite/job/C-C---Engineer_JR1962904 https://nvidia.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/NVIDIAExternalCar... "Software Engineer I/II" @ Microsoft > 2+ years of experience with one or more general purpose programming languages including but not limited to: Java, C/C++, C#, Python, JavaScript, PowerShell https://careers.microsoft.com/us/en/job/1469524/Software-Engineer-I-II https://careers.microsoft.com/us/en/job/1469524/Software-Eng... "Senior Software Engineer" @ Google > Experience in software development, using one or more general purpose programming languages (e.g., C/C++, Java, Python, JavaScript, C#, Go, Objective-C). https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/126128596306535110/ https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/126128596306535110/ "Graphics Modeling Engineer" @ Apple > Solid C/C++ programming skills https://jobs.apple.com/de-de/details/200449024/graphics-modeling-engineer?team=HRDWR https://jobs.apple.com/de-de/details/200449024/graphics-mode... "Sr. Software Development Engineer" @ AMD > The AMD Display Solutions Team is seeking a talented engineer to help develop new SW features, bring-up new graphics cards and make AMD’s driver software industry leading. This role offers the opportunity to show off your technical skills in kernel mode debugging, solving complex engineering problems and architecting new C/C++ code. https://careers.amd.com/careers-home/jobs/24464?lang=en-us https://careers.amd.com/careers-home/jobs/24464?lang=en-us "C++ developer - LLVM Compiler" @ ARM > C/C++ development experience in systems programming environment https://careers.arm.com/job/cambridge/software-engineer/33099/35003143312 https://careers.arm.com/job/cambridge/software-engineer/3309... And naturally the now gone, C/C++ Users Journal (https://dl.acm.org/journal/ccuj https://dl.acm.org/journal/ccuj) So one can be pedantic as they want, not accepting jobs that state C/C++ or whatever, meanwhile the companies that rule the world of C and C++, and their evolution, seem to know what it is all about.
        tialaramex 4y ago
        In the cases where it's a list the problem is really obvious. If I wrote that I should like to buy clothing such as "Cardigans, Blouses/Socks, Waistcoats, Trousers, Skirts, Shorts" that's obviously really weird. Do I think Blouses and Socks are the same kind of thing? Why aren't they just listed individually like the others? Weird. Notice that none of the lists write Java/Javascript or Go/Python because that would be silly, so why do they write C/C++? Beyond that, take the ARM job. You'd have us believe that description says C/C++ meaning either C or C++. But it's an LLVM developer job. It says C/C++ because the person typing it up didn't think there's much difference. Maybe ARM is open to hiring people who don't actually know any C++ for this position, there's no salary indication and it's not highlighted as a senior role, so perhaps they're hiring fresh graduates whose C++ would be terrible anyway, a few weeks of Kate's Pluralsight courses and reviewing other people's contributions might get good non-C++ candidates up to speed. But I wouldn't bet on it, applying if you aren't a C++ programmer is likely a waste of your time. For the AMD one I can actually believe AMD would take a great C developer. They need Linux kernel support just as much as Windows, and unless AMD is going to start writing in Rust that'll be C code. If you send Linus code that thinks it's basically all the same he's going to have a meltdown and make your life miserable. But for Apple we're back to I just don't believe C candidates will get this job. That's C++ software again, they just aren't outright admitting it isn't a C job, but once it's apparent you are a C programmer you don't meet their actual needs. Their mistake, not yours, but it's your time and effort.

Elaborate.

by lvass 4y ago

Elaborate.

I think they’re referencing how English grammar isn’t consistent, but at least C and C++ have a defined grammar (from the spec). Therefore, people bashing C and C++ should look in the mirror?

pjmlp 4y ago
No, actually referring to use of / in English grammar.

pjmlp 4y ago

Any reference to an English grammar will easily explain that / is an abbreviation for or. "The Proper Use of the Forward Slash in English" https://eslgrammar.org/forward-slash https://eslgrammar.org/forward-slash Thus C/C++ as in C or C++. On top of revealing lack of grammar knowledge, it also reveals lack of understanding of ISO papers, documentation from all companies with seat at ISO, their job boards, and major publications like the now gone "The C/C++ Users Journal".

codeflo 4y ago
English grammar is a red herring in this discussion. You would never claim that you bought a Ford/Toyota, or ate a pizza/banana.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Depends on the quality of speech.
  - tialaramex 4y ago
    Grice's Maxims apply. In many cases it's weird to have the "or" where we're otherwise very specific. "Wanna go get a burger/pasty ?" seems pretty reasonable if we happen to live somewhere that a burger or a pasty are reasonable food alternatives. Maybe there's a burger van parked on the corner, and there's also a shop that sells pasties. Pizza is food, but it's not an option here. "Wanna buy a house/chocolate bar ?" seems very weird. Why these specific alternatives? Do you live somewhere with a confectioner and a real estate business and nothing else? Even so, what sort of person isn't sure which of these things they would buy ? C/C++ is closer to the latter the more you know about both languages.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Only when one is being pedantic about what it should mean. I rather point out how the companies that seat at ISO use it. After 10 months from my previous remark on the subject, with updated links. "C/C++ Engineer" @ NVidia https://nvidia.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/NVIDIAExternalCareerSite/job/C-C---Engineer_JR1962904 https://nvidia.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/NVIDIAExternalCar... "Software Engineer I/II" @ Microsoft > 2+ years of experience with one or more general purpose programming languages including but not limited to: Java, C/C++, C#, Python, JavaScript, PowerShell https://careers.microsoft.com/us/en/job/1469524/Software-Engineer-I-II https://careers.microsoft.com/us/en/job/1469524/Software-Eng... "Senior Software Engineer" @ Google > Experience in software development, using one or more general purpose programming languages (e.g., C/C++, Java, Python, JavaScript, C#, Go, Objective-C). https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/126128596306535110/ https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/126128596306535110/ "Graphics Modeling Engineer" @ Apple > Solid C/C++ programming skills https://jobs.apple.com/de-de/details/200449024/graphics-modeling-engineer?team=HRDWR https://jobs.apple.com/de-de/details/200449024/graphics-mode... "Sr. Software Development Engineer" @ AMD > The AMD Display Solutions Team is seeking a talented engineer to help develop new SW features, bring-up new graphics cards and make AMD’s driver software industry leading. This role offers the opportunity to show off your technical skills in kernel mode debugging, solving complex engineering problems and architecting new C/C++ code. https://careers.amd.com/careers-home/jobs/24464?lang=en-us https://careers.amd.com/careers-home/jobs/24464?lang=en-us "C++ developer - LLVM Compiler" @ ARM > C/C++ development experience in systems programming environment https://careers.arm.com/job/cambridge/software-engineer/33099/35003143312 https://careers.arm.com/job/cambridge/software-engineer/3309... And naturally the now gone, C/C++ Users Journal (https://dl.acm.org/journal/ccuj https://dl.acm.org/journal/ccuj) So one can be pedantic as they want, not accepting jobs that state C/C++ or whatever, meanwhile the companies that rule the world of C and C++, and their evolution, seem to know what it is all about.
      - tialaramex 4y ago
        In the cases where it's a list the problem is really obvious. If I wrote that I should like to buy clothing such as "Cardigans, Blouses/Socks, Waistcoats, Trousers, Skirts, Shorts" that's obviously really weird. Do I think Blouses and Socks are the same kind of thing? Why aren't they just listed individually like the others? Weird. Notice that none of the lists write Java/Javascript or Go/Python because that would be silly, so why do they write C/C++? Beyond that, take the ARM job. You'd have us believe that description says C/C++ meaning either C or C++. But it's an LLVM developer job. It says C/C++ because the person typing it up didn't think there's much difference. Maybe ARM is open to hiring people who don't actually know any C++ for this position, there's no salary indication and it's not highlighted as a senior role, so perhaps they're hiring fresh graduates whose C++ would be terrible anyway, a few weeks of Kate's Pluralsight courses and reviewing other people's contributions might get good non-C++ candidates up to speed. But I wouldn't bet on it, applying if you aren't a C++ programmer is likely a waste of your time. For the AMD one I can actually believe AMD would take a great C developer. They need Linux kernel support just as much as Windows, and unless AMD is going to start writing in Rust that'll be C code. If you send Linus code that thinks it's basically all the same he's going to have a meltdown and make your life miserable. But for Apple we're back to I just don't believe C candidates will get this job. That's C++ software again, they just aren't outright admitting it isn't a C job, but once it's apparent you are a C programmer you don't meet their actual needs. Their mistake, not yours, but it's your time and effort.