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Any camera or photo only gives you a version of reality. Exposure, white balance, 35mm vs 50mm vs 120mm, etc., can all affect the image subtly. So even with "pr

Any camera or photo only gives you a version of reality. Exposure, white balance, 35mm vs 50mm vs 120mm, etc., can all affect the image subtly. So even with "pro tools", your RAW images are getting doctored by photographer choices.

kevincox 4y ago
To some degree there is no such thing as the true image. However many devices, especially some smartphones are really going past "representing reality" and into enhancing what the viewer wants.
- cardamomo 4y ago
  This is really my point. I'm not arguing that the appraiser should only look at the artwork with their own eyes. Rather, the degree to which phones are enhancing photos is not transparent to the average end user and therefore is risky to use in an application that relies on the details of an image being scrutinized.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    iOS allows you to shoot in RAW and avoid all (some?) post-processing. [1] I believe its even easier to set up in Halide. Is it possible the appraiser was doing so? [1] https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/iphone/iphae1e882a3/ios https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/iphone/iphae1e882a3/io...
    - bee_rider 4y ago
      Note that this is only available on certain models. Not to contradict you or anything, the appraiser might have had one such model!
      - astrange 4y ago
        Just use a third party camera app and it’s available on any iPhone. I promise all dedicated cameras are also doing (almost all of) this kind of processing though. It’s needed to develop raw images at all. The specific tuning is just up to taste.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
stemlord 4y ago
Yeah to extend your point, this struggle with how to even define objectivity has been present at the core of science and journalism throughout modernity. The drawings in old field guides are curated to a supposed "idealized" form based on their use case (i.e., to be recognized in the wild by other researchers). Those specific idealized versions don't actually exist, though. There was a famous instance of a ww1 phototographer (dont remember his name) who would allegedly move dead bodies around in his shots to better capture what he thought was the emotional reality through the resulting image rather than what the literal scene was. We can have all the computerized scanning of the universe at our disposal but ultimately there's always the analog hole of our judgement in its interpretation
- tuatoru 4y ago
  You're also missing gp's point. The photographer should be in control of interpretation, because she knows the intended use of the photo. Phones assume everything is a selfie. The idea that "reality is the goal" is the product of not bothering to think at all. Choosing what to make an image of, and framing the image, will always be in service of a story or "emotional reality". It always was, from cave-wall paintings onwards.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
Oh c'mon. There is a stark difference between optical limitations, artifacts, or color balance and machine learning enabled post processing.
- jhanschoo 4y ago
  To a very real extent, the lighting and its spectra wherein the photo was taken, for example, has far more an effect on the perception of the photo subject than any default post-processing.
  - lambdasquirrel 4y ago
    Until you start doing AI magic to mess around with exactly that. I was driving down the 99 towards Seattle last week, and the foggy sky took on this wonderful warm glow. But my phone did what it always does with the sky: change the color balance of the sky so that it looks blue. I wish it'd just left it alone.
    - bcraven 4y ago
      Picking a white point is not "AI", no matter what the marketing will have you believe! The camera simply takes the average grey value grabs a temperature from it. You can likely stick your photograph into some basic editing software and set your own white balance. I even think the built-in Windows photo viewer can do WB adjustment these days
  - ever1337 4y ago
    at least the lighting can be controlled, this post processing cannot.
brookst 4y ago
Even worse, our perception of the image is deeply colored by the visual cortex and bio-optics of our eyes, all of which can vary person to person. None of us will ever see anything the way it “really is.”
tuatoru 4y ago
> So even with "pro tools", your RAW images are getting doctored by photographer choices. Exactly the point and exactly what is needed. Photographer choices, not camera choices. A pro[1] photographer knows what to do for different subjects, light, and goals, but phone software has no clue. Every image is a selfie for instagram. 1. Or an amateur who bothers to learn and experiment.
- remote_phone 4y ago
  Pros can use Halide. For me, the default iPhone camera app is pretty good in my opinion.
rubatuga 4y ago
You are conflating RAW and iPhone images, which is not a good argument. RAW allows you to change exposure and white balance after shooting.
- shmoogy 4y ago
  You can shoot raw on iPhone, I think resulting file is .dng but I never really look at them, they just go into Lightroom.
- foldr 4y ago
  You can change the white balance of a JPEG too (and exposure, but with less latitude).
hot_gril 4y ago
At least they aren't using AI to make stuff up.

kevincox 4y ago

To some degree there is no such thing as the true image. However many devices, especially some smartphones are really going past "representing reality" and into enhancing what the viewer wants.

cardamomo 4y ago
This is really my point. I'm not arguing that the appraiser should only look at the artwork with their own eyes. Rather, the degree to which phones are enhancing photos is not transparent to the average end user and therefore is risky to use in an application that relies on the details of an image being scrutinized.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  iOS allows you to shoot in RAW and avoid all (some?) post-processing. [1] I believe its even easier to set up in Halide. Is it possible the appraiser was doing so? [1] https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/iphone/iphae1e882a3/ios https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/iphone/iphae1e882a3/io...
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    Note that this is only available on certain models. Not to contradict you or anything, the appraiser might have had one such model!
    - astrange 4y ago
      Just use a third party camera app and it’s available on any iPhone. I promise all dedicated cameras are also doing (almost all of) this kind of processing though. It’s needed to develop raw images at all. The specific tuning is just up to taste.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

stemlord 4y ago

Yeah to extend your point, this struggle with how to even define objectivity has been present at the core of science and journalism throughout modernity. The drawings in old field guides are curated to a supposed "idealized" form based on their use case (i.e., to be recognized in the wild by other researchers). Those specific idealized versions don't actually exist, though. There was a famous instance of a ww1 phototographer (dont remember his name) who would allegedly move dead bodies around in his shots to better capture what he thought was the emotional reality through the resulting image rather than what the literal scene was. We can have all the computerized scanning of the universe at our disposal but ultimately there's always the analog hole of our judgement in its interpretation

tuatoru 4y ago
You're also missing gp's point. The photographer should be in control of interpretation, because she knows the intended use of the photo. Phones assume everything is a selfie. The idea that "reality is the goal" is the product of not bothering to think at all. Choosing what to make an image of, and framing the image, will always be in service of a story or "emotional reality". It always was, from cave-wall paintings onwards.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

Oh c'mon. There is a stark difference between optical limitations, artifacts, or color balance and machine learning enabled post processing.

jhanschoo 4y ago
To a very real extent, the lighting and its spectra wherein the photo was taken, for example, has far more an effect on the perception of the photo subject than any default post-processing.
- lambdasquirrel 4y ago
  Until you start doing AI magic to mess around with exactly that. I was driving down the 99 towards Seattle last week, and the foggy sky took on this wonderful warm glow. But my phone did what it always does with the sky: change the color balance of the sky so that it looks blue. I wish it'd just left it alone.
  - bcraven 4y ago
    Picking a white point is not "AI", no matter what the marketing will have you believe! The camera simply takes the average grey value grabs a temperature from it. You can likely stick your photograph into some basic editing software and set your own white balance. I even think the built-in Windows photo viewer can do WB adjustment these days
- ever1337 4y ago
  at least the lighting can be controlled, this post processing cannot.

brookst 4y ago

Even worse, our perception of the image is deeply colored by the visual cortex and bio-optics of our eyes, all of which can vary person to person. None of us will ever see anything the way it “really is.”

tuatoru 4y ago

> So even with "pro tools", your RAW images are getting doctored by photographer choices. Exactly the point and exactly what is needed. Photographer choices, not camera choices. A pro[1] photographer knows what to do for different subjects, light, and goals, but phone software has no clue. Every image is a selfie for instagram. 1. Or an amateur who bothers to learn and experiment.

remote_phone 4y ago
Pros can use Halide. For me, the default iPhone camera app is pretty good in my opinion.

rubatuga 4y ago

You are conflating RAW and iPhone images, which is not a good argument. RAW allows you to change exposure and white balance after shooting.

shmoogy 4y ago
You can shoot raw on iPhone, I think resulting file is .dng but I never really look at them, they just go into Lightroom.
foldr 4y ago
You can change the white balance of a JPEG too (and exposure, but with less latitude).

hot_gril 4y ago

At least they aren't using AI to make stuff up.