4 ms·

It seems that mRNA vaccines are becoming like antivirus software updates: inject the whole "database" and your body scans for currently-known threats. Does the

by p1mrx 4y ago

It seems that mRNA vaccines are becoming like antivirus software updates: inject the whole "database" and your body scans for currently-known threats. Does the immune system have a capacity limit? I wonder if the technology will reach a point where we can print mRNA on demand. Could we build a database of bacteriophage viruses that target various strains of bacteria, and use custom-printed mRNA to produce the correct virus when someone has a bacterial infection?

warning26 4y ago
IIRC, “printing mRNA vaccines on demand” was pretty much Moderna’s original startup pitch. Their idea was to create custom cancer vaccines for each patient.
ITB 4y ago
This. I worry we will exhaust our genetic engines and deteriorate our bodies by overuse.
- grey413 4y ago
  Well, worry not! Research suggests that the human body can produce up to a quintillion unique antibodies! A vaccine is a drop in a solar-system. https://www.scripps.edu/news-and-events/press-room/2019/20190123-burton-antibodies.html https://www.scripps.edu/news-and-events/press-room/2019/2019...
- lamontcg 4y ago
  The immune system has already been dealing with the problem of finite resources for the past 500M years or so. The biggest issue is that circulating neutralizing antibodies take up a finite fraction of the blood. One of the reasons why neutralizing antibodies fade over time is to literally make more space for other antibodies. One of the reasons why you need a boost of a vaccine at least 6 months after the first dose is that somatic hypermutation takes time to develop high affinity neutralizing antibodies that are effective in much small fractions of the blood. Even after that though neutralizing antibodies still tend to fade and what is left is just the memory T-cells and B-cells in lymph tissue. So the immune system naturally activates and deactivates. But this is more like a book on a bookshelf. It isn't really consuming "energy" and there's a massive amount of them that are available. You also need to be much more worried about all the naturally occurring viruses and antigens that you're being exposed to--including the ones that don't actually get you sick at all. You're worrying about the sparring partners of a heavyweight prizefighter "sapping their energy" and ignoring the real opponents. If you've read something about COVID and lympocytopenia ("T-cell exhaustion") then that only happens in severe COVID and shows up in autopsies and is studied as an indicator of how mild (unhospitalized) COVID turns into severe life-threatening COVID. The people who talk about that on social media are literally ignorant idiots who don't know what they're talking about.
russdill 4y ago
The number of things your immune system knows about is absolutely enormous and grows everyday. Vaccinations are a tiny drop in the bucket
- KRAKRISMOTT 4y ago
  No to mention that without boosting, immune memory fades over time.
  - pc86 4y ago
    This is a gross oversimplification. Many things do not need any sort of boosting and you retain lifetime immunity or near-immunity.
    - KRAKRISMOTT 4y ago
      Show me the literature, nothing has true lifetime immunity. You get close to lifetime immunity but the curves will continue dropping.
- jokowueu 4y ago
  This is a bit offtopic . Is it possible to wipe that memory? Sounds like it would resolve all Autoimmune disease
  - p1mrx 4y ago
    I think the HIV virus can do that, but there are a few side effects.
  - influx 4y ago
    My understanding it they do something like this for bone marrow transplants with radiation/chemotherapy. Hopefully helps with Google searches, or someone coming to correct me :)
    - rolph 4y ago
keithwhor 4y ago
We print RNA on demand already. There’s a company called Synthego that invented a lab-in-a-box to synthesize arbitrary oligonucleotides in a machine that fits inside a server rack. They use their technology to sell full genome engineering solutions. https://www.synthego.com/ https://www.synthego.com/
alphazard 4y ago
It was concerning to see the mRNA vaccines associated with myocarditis. It seems like that made the public unnecessarily skeptical of mRNA as a technology. But my understanding is that was a protein engineering issue that could have happened with any vaccine technology and was not specific to mRNA as a platform. Are there any experts here that can confirm that is a coincidence or explain why mRNA as a technology is more susceptible to issues like that?
- russdill 4y ago
  Myocarditis is a common immune reaction and not specific to mRNA or even vaccines https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6786665/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6786665/
  - russdill 4y ago
    Common is probably not the best word choice here.
  - alphazard 4y ago
    This is a case study of myocarditis after an influenza vaccine. This single data point, or even the fact that this is a possible immune reaction doesn't really speak to the issue I'm asking about. In the last few years a slew of COVID vaccines were widely deployed without myocarditis as a complication. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines made headline news for their elevated risk of myocarditis, and resulted in changes in vaccine recommendations for certain demographics. Both were mRNA based. Do they have other things in common, dosage, proteins, preservatives, shelf lives? What else is similar between them and different from the other vaccines?
yucky 4y ago
> It seems that mRNA vaccines are becoming like antivirus software updates Uh...is this supposed to make us feel better or worse?

by p1mrx 4y ago

warning26 4y ago

IIRC, “printing mRNA vaccines on demand” was pretty much Moderna’s original startup pitch. Their idea was to create custom cancer vaccines for each patient.

ITB 4y ago

This. I worry we will exhaust our genetic engines and deteriorate our bodies by overuse.

grey413 4y ago
Well, worry not! Research suggests that the human body can produce up to a quintillion unique antibodies! A vaccine is a drop in a solar-system. https://www.scripps.edu/news-and-events/press-room/2019/20190123-burton-antibodies.html https://www.scripps.edu/news-and-events/press-room/2019/2019...
lamontcg 4y ago
The immune system has already been dealing with the problem of finite resources for the past 500M years or so. The biggest issue is that circulating neutralizing antibodies take up a finite fraction of the blood. One of the reasons why neutralizing antibodies fade over time is to literally make more space for other antibodies. One of the reasons why you need a boost of a vaccine at least 6 months after the first dose is that somatic hypermutation takes time to develop high affinity neutralizing antibodies that are effective in much small fractions of the blood. Even after that though neutralizing antibodies still tend to fade and what is left is just the memory T-cells and B-cells in lymph tissue. So the immune system naturally activates and deactivates. But this is more like a book on a bookshelf. It isn't really consuming "energy" and there's a massive amount of them that are available. You also need to be much more worried about all the naturally occurring viruses and antigens that you're being exposed to--including the ones that don't actually get you sick at all. You're worrying about the sparring partners of a heavyweight prizefighter "sapping their energy" and ignoring the real opponents. If you've read something about COVID and lympocytopenia ("T-cell exhaustion") then that only happens in severe COVID and shows up in autopsies and is studied as an indicator of how mild (unhospitalized) COVID turns into severe life-threatening COVID. The people who talk about that on social media are literally ignorant idiots who don't know what they're talking about.

russdill 4y ago

The number of things your immune system knows about is absolutely enormous and grows everyday. Vaccinations are a tiny drop in the bucket

KRAKRISMOTT 4y ago
No to mention that without boosting, immune memory fades over time.
- pc86 4y ago
  This is a gross oversimplification. Many things do not need any sort of boosting and you retain lifetime immunity or near-immunity.
  - KRAKRISMOTT 4y ago
    Show me the literature, nothing has true lifetime immunity. You get close to lifetime immunity but the curves will continue dropping.
jokowueu 4y ago
This is a bit offtopic . Is it possible to wipe that memory? Sounds like it would resolve all Autoimmune disease
- p1mrx 4y ago
  I think the HIV virus can do that, but there are a few side effects.
- influx 4y ago
  My understanding it they do something like this for bone marrow transplants with radiation/chemotherapy. Hopefully helps with Google searches, or someone coming to correct me :)
  - rolph 4y ago

keithwhor 4y ago

We print RNA on demand already. There’s a company called Synthego that invented a lab-in-a-box to synthesize arbitrary oligonucleotides in a machine that fits inside a server rack. They use their technology to sell full genome engineering solutions. https://www.synthego.com/ https://www.synthego.com/

alphazard 4y ago

It was concerning to see the mRNA vaccines associated with myocarditis. It seems like that made the public unnecessarily skeptical of mRNA as a technology. But my understanding is that was a protein engineering issue that could have happened with any vaccine technology and was not specific to mRNA as a platform. Are there any experts here that can confirm that is a coincidence or explain why mRNA as a technology is more susceptible to issues like that?

russdill 4y ago
Myocarditis is a common immune reaction and not specific to mRNA or even vaccines https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6786665/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6786665/
- russdill 4y ago
  Common is probably not the best word choice here.
- alphazard 4y ago
  This is a case study of myocarditis after an influenza vaccine. This single data point, or even the fact that this is a possible immune reaction doesn't really speak to the issue I'm asking about. In the last few years a slew of COVID vaccines were widely deployed without myocarditis as a complication. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines made headline news for their elevated risk of myocarditis, and resulted in changes in vaccine recommendations for certain demographics. Both were mRNA based. Do they have other things in common, dosage, proteins, preservatives, shelf lives? What else is similar between them and different from the other vaccines?

yucky 4y ago

> It seems that mRNA vaccines are becoming like antivirus software updates Uh...is this supposed to make us feel better or worse?