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Thanks for sharing this. It's not about not getting sick. It's about getting less sick than you would have if you didn't get vaccinated.

poszlem 4y ago
No, it's also about not getting sick. The "vaccine is not about preventing the infection" meme got really annoying since COVID, since the COVID vaccine while very useful turned out to not be as useful for infection prevention as we'd thought. That does not change the fact that the role of a "vaccine" is mainly to prevent the infection, and the "getting less sick" fact is a second class effect.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > it's also about not getting sick You’re correct [1]. The vaccine mainly aims to reduce the frequency and intensity of illness. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm
- woodruffw 4y ago
  You're describing sterilizing immunity, which is a property that only some vaccines provide. More generally, vaccines are just a mechanism for acquiring immunity. Immunity doesn't mean "you don't feel sick," it means "your immune systems responds better and faster to the real thing."
  - poszlem 4y ago
    I am not describing sterilizing immunity, I am saying that the original, and the most common understanding of what a vaccine is is "something that you take that makes you not get sick". That is exactly how most vaccines have been advertised for years, and how most people think of them. I do not need to need to be educated about how vaccines work, I know that there is a secondary effect of vaccines that primes your immune system and makes the disease easier to fight. But it's a secondary effect, otherwise we would call more things "vaccines", as we know that for example "exercise helps with immune response".
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      You're talking about a simplified "pop" understanding of what a vaccine is and does. Even in elementary school I wasn't told that a vaccine prevents disease; I was told that it provokes an immune response that provides resistance to a disease. The fact that people confuse the two is a legitimate public education problem. But it doesn't change what they actually are, or how medical professionals use the word. > But it's a secondary effect, otherwise we would call more things "vaccines", as we know that for example "exercise helps with immune response". It is the effect. I think everybody understands the difference between taking care of yourself and receiving a medical preparation that stimulates your immune system against a specific disease.
    - dxhdr 4y ago
      > I am not describing sterilizing immunity, I am saying that the original, and the most common understanding of what a vaccine is is "something that you take that makes you not get sick". The CDC changed the definition of vaccine on Sept 2, 2021 and removed the reference to immunity. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20210901163633/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20210901163633/https://www.cdc.g... [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20210902194040/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20210902194040/https://www.cdc.g... And just to preempt your question, every news source reachable via Google says the change has nothing to do with COVID or the effectiveness of the COVID vaccine.
      - yucky 4y ago
        > every news source reachable via Google says the change has nothing to do with COVID or the effectiveness of the COVID vaccine. Does that sound logical to you? The definition went unchanged for years until the CDC came under direct attack for the effectiveness of the COVID vaccine compared to other vaccines. If it's unrelated, wouldn't that make it quite a coincidence?
        woodruffw 4y ago
        I think the person you're responding to is being facetious. Either way, it doesn't matter: the website in question is a public information page, not a medical reference. The CDC updated it because it was incorrect, and the timing of their update makes perfect sense given the public's confusion (and predation around that confusion).
- grey413 4y ago
  You're being overly proscriptive about vaccines. Vaccines have multiple layers of effect because our immune systems have multiple layers of effect. You don't neglect the seatbelts just because the car is more likely to crash in the first place.
  - poszlem 4y ago
    In which place am I overly proscriptive? In the paragraph where I say that the vaccines are ALSO intended to prevent people from getting sick? If anything it's the OP who is overly reductive. At no point did I say that you should not get vaccinated, you are putting words in my mouth. I said that the original intention of vaccines was to prevent infection. It is still the main way that most people conceptualizes vaccines too.

poszlem 4y ago

No, it's also about not getting sick. The "vaccine is not about preventing the infection" meme got really annoying since COVID, since the COVID vaccine while very useful turned out to not be as useful for infection prevention as we'd thought. That does not change the fact that the role of a "vaccine" is mainly to prevent the infection, and the "getting less sick" fact is a second class effect.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> it's also about not getting sick You’re correct [1]. The vaccine mainly aims to reduce the frequency and intensity of illness. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm
woodruffw 4y ago
You're describing sterilizing immunity, which is a property that only some vaccines provide. More generally, vaccines are just a mechanism for acquiring immunity. Immunity doesn't mean "you don't feel sick," it means "your immune systems responds better and faster to the real thing."
- poszlem 4y ago
  I am not describing sterilizing immunity, I am saying that the original, and the most common understanding of what a vaccine is is "something that you take that makes you not get sick". That is exactly how most vaccines have been advertised for years, and how most people think of them. I do not need to need to be educated about how vaccines work, I know that there is a secondary effect of vaccines that primes your immune system and makes the disease easier to fight. But it's a secondary effect, otherwise we would call more things "vaccines", as we know that for example "exercise helps with immune response".
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    You're talking about a simplified "pop" understanding of what a vaccine is and does. Even in elementary school I wasn't told that a vaccine prevents disease; I was told that it provokes an immune response that provides resistance to a disease. The fact that people confuse the two is a legitimate public education problem. But it doesn't change what they actually are, or how medical professionals use the word. > But it's a secondary effect, otherwise we would call more things "vaccines", as we know that for example "exercise helps with immune response". It is the effect. I think everybody understands the difference between taking care of yourself and receiving a medical preparation that stimulates your immune system against a specific disease.
  - dxhdr 4y ago
    > I am not describing sterilizing immunity, I am saying that the original, and the most common understanding of what a vaccine is is "something that you take that makes you not get sick". The CDC changed the definition of vaccine on Sept 2, 2021 and removed the reference to immunity. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20210901163633/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20210901163633/https://www.cdc.g... [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20210902194040/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20210902194040/https://www.cdc.g... And just to preempt your question, every news source reachable via Google says the change has nothing to do with COVID or the effectiveness of the COVID vaccine.
    - yucky 4y ago
      > every news source reachable via Google says the change has nothing to do with COVID or the effectiveness of the COVID vaccine. Does that sound logical to you? The definition went unchanged for years until the CDC came under direct attack for the effectiveness of the COVID vaccine compared to other vaccines. If it's unrelated, wouldn't that make it quite a coincidence?
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        I think the person you're responding to is being facetious. Either way, it doesn't matter: the website in question is a public information page, not a medical reference. The CDC updated it because it was incorrect, and the timing of their update makes perfect sense given the public's confusion (and predation around that confusion).
grey413 4y ago
You're being overly proscriptive about vaccines. Vaccines have multiple layers of effect because our immune systems have multiple layers of effect. You don't neglect the seatbelts just because the car is more likely to crash in the first place.
- poszlem 4y ago
  In which place am I overly proscriptive? In the paragraph where I say that the vaccines are ALSO intended to prevent people from getting sick? If anything it's the OP who is overly reductive. At no point did I say that you should not get vaccinated, you are putting words in my mouth. I said that the original intention of vaccines was to prevent infection. It is still the main way that most people conceptualizes vaccines too.