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I get flu vaccines yearly, and every time I still get sick. My kids got the vaccine this year, and all of them got sick because of the flu, 3 times. I really do

by sdo72 4y ago

I get flu vaccines yearly, and every time I still get sick. My kids got the vaccine this year, and all of them got sick because of the flu, 3 times. I really don't know if the flu vaccine does anything, but it definitely gives me lots of doubts. Then we had a family member who got very sick a month or two ago because of the flu, he was sent to ER, ICU, and eventually didn't make it. That sent a shock wave to our family. He planned to get the flu vaccine a bit later but got sick right before. Please get vaccinated, if it doesn't work well, it may give us the second chance to survive.

Entinel 4y ago
Thanks for sharing this. It's not about not getting sick. It's about getting less sick than you would have if you didn't get vaccinated.
- poszlem 4y ago
  No, it's also about not getting sick. The "vaccine is not about preventing the infection" meme got really annoying since COVID, since the COVID vaccine while very useful turned out to not be as useful for infection prevention as we'd thought. That does not change the fact that the role of a "vaccine" is mainly to prevent the infection, and the "getting less sick" fact is a second class effect.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > it's also about not getting sick You’re correct [1]. The vaccine mainly aims to reduce the frequency and intensity of illness. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    You're describing sterilizing immunity, which is a property that only some vaccines provide. More generally, vaccines are just a mechanism for acquiring immunity. Immunity doesn't mean "you don't feel sick," it means "your immune systems responds better and faster to the real thing."
    - poszlem 4y ago
      I am not describing sterilizing immunity, I am saying that the original, and the most common understanding of what a vaccine is is "something that you take that makes you not get sick". That is exactly how most vaccines have been advertised for years, and how most people think of them. I do not need to need to be educated about how vaccines work, I know that there is a secondary effect of vaccines that primes your immune system and makes the disease easier to fight. But it's a secondary effect, otherwise we would call more things "vaccines", as we know that for example "exercise helps with immune response".
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        You're talking about a simplified "pop" understanding of what a vaccine is and does. Even in elementary school I wasn't told that a vaccine prevents disease; I was told that it provokes an immune response that provides resistance to a disease. The fact that people confuse the two is a legitimate public education problem. But it doesn't change what they actually are, or how medical professionals use the word. > But it's a secondary effect, otherwise we would call more things "vaccines", as we know that for example "exercise helps with immune response". It is the effect. I think everybody understands the difference between taking care of yourself and receiving a medical preparation that stimulates your immune system against a specific disease.
      - dxhdr 4y ago
        > I am not describing sterilizing immunity, I am saying that the original, and the most common understanding of what a vaccine is is "something that you take that makes you not get sick". The CDC changed the definition of vaccine on Sept 2, 2021 and removed the reference to immunity. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20210901163633/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20210901163633/https://www.cdc.g... [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20210902194040/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20210902194040/https://www.cdc.g... And just to preempt your question, every news source reachable via Google says the change has nothing to do with COVID or the effectiveness of the COVID vaccine.
  - grey413 4y ago
    You're being overly proscriptive about vaccines. Vaccines have multiple layers of effect because our immune systems have multiple layers of effect. You don't neglect the seatbelts just because the car is more likely to crash in the first place.
    - poszlem 4y ago
      In which place am I overly proscriptive? In the paragraph where I say that the vaccines are ALSO intended to prevent people from getting sick? If anything it's the OP who is overly reductive. At no point did I say that you should not get vaccinated, you are putting words in my mouth. I said that the original intention of vaccines was to prevent infection. It is still the main way that most people conceptualizes vaccines too.
scotty79 4y ago
I think reduction of chance of getting infected that you can get from flu vaccine is very modest and in any single case can be easily drowned in the noise caused by all other factors. But it's visible in epidemiological data.
grey413 4y ago
Something that following the progress of COVID vaccines really taught me is that vaccines have an important role in reducing the severity of a disease in addition to stopping them outright. I'd much rather get a mild flu than a moderate flu, let alone a severe one. This seems to be particularly true for fast-acting viral respiratory diseases. Our immune systems seem to have soft biological limits on how well they can prevent them.
- thehappypm 4y ago
  There’s a population factor and an individual factor. Let’s say it’s half effective. By vaccinating the population, the virus spreads more slowly, since half of people are dead ends. So you wind up with less cases in aggregate — and potentially exponentially less.
  - grey413 4y ago
    Also very true! Blunting logarithmic growth is a huge net positive.
- actuallyalys 4y ago
  Part of the issue with fast-acting viral respiratory diseases seems to be that vaccines don't induce mucosal immunity: "Currently approved SARS-CoV-2 vaccines induce robust systemic immunity but poor immunity at the respiratory mucosa, meaning that they are highly effective against symptomatic disease but do not prevent viral transmission." https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-022-01405-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-022-01405-w
  - grey413 4y ago
    That's very interesting. Just goes to show that there's plenty to be learned. Thanks for sharing.
wojciii 4y ago
I don't want the flu vaccine for neigher me nor my children. I want us to get sick and our immune systems to take care of the flu together with some garlic, hot tea and down time. At the same time the adults are vaccinated for COVID and our children are vaccinated for the usual stuff that will kill them. I think that my employer really wants to avoid any downtime of his workforce and suggests a flu vaccination every year. I think that some downtime is good for my wellbeing and that I don't wan't to be more effective.
- undersuit 4y ago
  Then take actual downtime. You can't relax when you have a fever.
- kcplate 4y ago
  Being on the management side of things for a company that offered free flu shots in office for convenience to the employees (despite health insurance coverage at doctors offices and pharmacies), we absolutely did it to minimize the sick time impact to the company. I do not see what is wrong with that motive. Companies have a duty to protect themselves do they not?
  - wojciii 4y ago
    Companies can do whatever they want. I just don't want to be a part of it. :)
    - BurningFrog 4y ago
      You probably shouldn't work for a company then...
    - kcplate 4y ago
      Well it certainly wasn’t mandatory and no records were kept of who did and who didn’t, and there was no stigma or recourse if someone opted out. However it was definitely effectively in decreasing the number of employees who took sick time during flu season though. Just the convenience of running down to the break room to get it vs going to a clinic increased the number of employees who would get the seasonal shot.
dekerta 4y ago
Are you certain you're getting the flu every year? Do you get tested for it? A lot of people assume they have the flu when it's really a bad cold
- sdo72 4y ago
  I get chills, fever, aches, and sometimes headaches. Those are flu viruses.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    All of those are symptoms of non-flu viruses too. Statistically, it's far more likely you had a cold.
  - dekerta 4y ago
    You can get a fever, aches, and headaches from the cold as well
russdill 4y ago
Small sample sizes can make it very difficult to determine effectiveness. Fortunately there is a ton of data out though if you are curious. The effectiveness does vary widely from year to year.
jackmott 4y ago
[dead]
lamontcg 4y ago
> My kids got the vaccine this year, and all of them got sick because of the flu, 3 times. probably not.
- beebmam 4y ago
  I had the flu 10 times one year in high school, coincidentally on days I didn't do my homework. Weird!
cryptoegorophy 4y ago
Vaccine is against one type of flu. Maybe you didn’t get sick with the other one but only this one. This is what the article is talking about. Covering all flu so that you don’t get sick.

by sdo72 4y ago

Entinel 4y ago

Thanks for sharing this. It's not about not getting sick. It's about getting less sick than you would have if you didn't get vaccinated.

poszlem 4y ago
No, it's also about not getting sick. The "vaccine is not about preventing the infection" meme got really annoying since COVID, since the COVID vaccine while very useful turned out to not be as useful for infection prevention as we'd thought. That does not change the fact that the role of a "vaccine" is mainly to prevent the infection, and the "getting less sick" fact is a second class effect.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > it's also about not getting sick You’re correct [1]. The vaccine mainly aims to reduce the frequency and intensity of illness. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm
- woodruffw 4y ago
  You're describing sterilizing immunity, which is a property that only some vaccines provide. More generally, vaccines are just a mechanism for acquiring immunity. Immunity doesn't mean "you don't feel sick," it means "your immune systems responds better and faster to the real thing."
  - poszlem 4y ago
    I am not describing sterilizing immunity, I am saying that the original, and the most common understanding of what a vaccine is is "something that you take that makes you not get sick". That is exactly how most vaccines have been advertised for years, and how most people think of them. I do not need to need to be educated about how vaccines work, I know that there is a secondary effect of vaccines that primes your immune system and makes the disease easier to fight. But it's a secondary effect, otherwise we would call more things "vaccines", as we know that for example "exercise helps with immune response".
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      You're talking about a simplified "pop" understanding of what a vaccine is and does. Even in elementary school I wasn't told that a vaccine prevents disease; I was told that it provokes an immune response that provides resistance to a disease. The fact that people confuse the two is a legitimate public education problem. But it doesn't change what they actually are, or how medical professionals use the word. > But it's a secondary effect, otherwise we would call more things "vaccines", as we know that for example "exercise helps with immune response". It is the effect. I think everybody understands the difference between taking care of yourself and receiving a medical preparation that stimulates your immune system against a specific disease.
    - dxhdr 4y ago
      > I am not describing sterilizing immunity, I am saying that the original, and the most common understanding of what a vaccine is is "something that you take that makes you not get sick". The CDC changed the definition of vaccine on Sept 2, 2021 and removed the reference to immunity. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20210901163633/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20210901163633/https://www.cdc.g... [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20210902194040/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20210902194040/https://www.cdc.g... And just to preempt your question, every news source reachable via Google says the change has nothing to do with COVID or the effectiveness of the COVID vaccine.
- grey413 4y ago
  You're being overly proscriptive about vaccines. Vaccines have multiple layers of effect because our immune systems have multiple layers of effect. You don't neglect the seatbelts just because the car is more likely to crash in the first place.
  - poszlem 4y ago
    In which place am I overly proscriptive? In the paragraph where I say that the vaccines are ALSO intended to prevent people from getting sick? If anything it's the OP who is overly reductive. At no point did I say that you should not get vaccinated, you are putting words in my mouth. I said that the original intention of vaccines was to prevent infection. It is still the main way that most people conceptualizes vaccines too.

scotty79 4y ago

I think reduction of chance of getting infected that you can get from flu vaccine is very modest and in any single case can be easily drowned in the noise caused by all other factors. But it's visible in epidemiological data.

grey413 4y ago

Something that following the progress of COVID vaccines really taught me is that vaccines have an important role in reducing the severity of a disease in addition to stopping them outright. I'd much rather get a mild flu than a moderate flu, let alone a severe one. This seems to be particularly true for fast-acting viral respiratory diseases. Our immune systems seem to have soft biological limits on how well they can prevent them.

thehappypm 4y ago
There’s a population factor and an individual factor. Let’s say it’s half effective. By vaccinating the population, the virus spreads more slowly, since half of people are dead ends. So you wind up with less cases in aggregate — and potentially exponentially less.
- grey413 4y ago
  Also very true! Blunting logarithmic growth is a huge net positive.
actuallyalys 4y ago
Part of the issue with fast-acting viral respiratory diseases seems to be that vaccines don't induce mucosal immunity: "Currently approved SARS-CoV-2 vaccines induce robust systemic immunity but poor immunity at the respiratory mucosa, meaning that they are highly effective against symptomatic disease but do not prevent viral transmission." https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-022-01405-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-022-01405-w
- grey413 4y ago
  That's very interesting. Just goes to show that there's plenty to be learned. Thanks for sharing.

wojciii 4y ago

I don't want the flu vaccine for neigher me nor my children. I want us to get sick and our immune systems to take care of the flu together with some garlic, hot tea and down time. At the same time the adults are vaccinated for COVID and our children are vaccinated for the usual stuff that will kill them. I think that my employer really wants to avoid any downtime of his workforce and suggests a flu vaccination every year. I think that some downtime is good for my wellbeing and that I don't wan't to be more effective.

undersuit 4y ago
Then take actual downtime. You can't relax when you have a fever.
kcplate 4y ago
Being on the management side of things for a company that offered free flu shots in office for convenience to the employees (despite health insurance coverage at doctors offices and pharmacies), we absolutely did it to minimize the sick time impact to the company. I do not see what is wrong with that motive. Companies have a duty to protect themselves do they not?
- wojciii 4y ago
  Companies can do whatever they want. I just don't want to be a part of it. :)
  - BurningFrog 4y ago
    You probably shouldn't work for a company then...
  - kcplate 4y ago
    Well it certainly wasn’t mandatory and no records were kept of who did and who didn’t, and there was no stigma or recourse if someone opted out. However it was definitely effectively in decreasing the number of employees who took sick time during flu season though. Just the convenience of running down to the break room to get it vs going to a clinic increased the number of employees who would get the seasonal shot.

dekerta 4y ago

Are you certain you're getting the flu every year? Do you get tested for it? A lot of people assume they have the flu when it's really a bad cold

sdo72 4y ago
I get chills, fever, aches, and sometimes headaches. Those are flu viruses.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  All of those are symptoms of non-flu viruses too. Statistically, it's far more likely you had a cold.
- dekerta 4y ago
  You can get a fever, aches, and headaches from the cold as well

russdill 4y ago

Small sample sizes can make it very difficult to determine effectiveness. Fortunately there is a ton of data out though if you are curious. The effectiveness does vary widely from year to year.

jackmott 4y ago

[dead]

lamontcg 4y ago

> My kids got the vaccine this year, and all of them got sick because of the flu, 3 times. probably not.

beebmam 4y ago
I had the flu 10 times one year in high school, coincidentally on days I didn't do my homework. Weird!

cryptoegorophy 4y ago

Vaccine is against one type of flu. Maybe you didn’t get sick with the other one but only this one. This is what the article is talking about. Covering all flu so that you don’t get sick.