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"Confronted with the question "what is red?", most people just shrug and get on with their lives." They would most likely point to something red and say "this

"Confronted with the question "what is red?", most people just shrug and get on with their lives." They would most likely point to something red and say "this is red" "and this is red, but more orange". They don't want to say "this is #ff0000". And asked what is a women, they would point to some human with characteristic female charaters and say "she is a woman", "and this person probably" "and this is likely a man". Very concrete and refering to the biological terms. And yes, that can be wrong on first look. And oh my, having long hair I also have been misstaken for a women some times and told, that I seem androgyn. So what? I know that I am biological a men and yes, I have a female side, maybe stronger than in stereotype man. That doesn't mean, I feel justified to go to a women only sauna and start a drama, because I feel more female that day. "if he stops lobbing bricks at my head" But is he really throwing something against you? Is he insulting you directly, or do you feel insulted by his opinion? What would matter to me in this concrete example: does he only accept pull requests from trans people, if they use their old name for example and insist on using "she" only for biological females? That would be over the line for me. Otherwise I could look over it.

wizzwizz4 4y ago
> And asked what is a women, they would point to some human with characteristic female charaters and say "she is a woman", "and this person probably" "and this is likely a man". Pretty much. > Very concrete and refering to the biological terms. They're referring to the categories, and those categories are often described in biological terms. But they're often described in other terms, too – men are XYZ, women are ABC. There are many ways you can point at the "woman" and "man" categories, none of which are descriptions of every man or woman. Outside of mathematics, categories don't have rigid boundaries and formal definitions… unless this is the one case in all the world where they do? (Not impossible, but Occam's Razor says human cognition probably doesn't special-case this.) My claim here is experimentally falsifiable, too: if you think you've got a formal definition, provide it, and I'm happy to give you examples of hypothetical people who obviously don't fit into it, exhibiting the divergence between your definition and the real-world man/woman distinction. Side note: over 10% of English speakers are from cultures with a continued tradition of having more than two genders. It's clear they mean something other than "biological terms", so I won't labour that point. > That doesn't mean, I feel justified to go to a women only sauna and start a drama, because I feel more female that day. I understand you're trying to express… confusion? Disagreement? But so far, it seems like you get it just fine. (Unless you're saying that you frequently feel more female than you do male, in which case… I don't think HN's the right place for the ensuing discussion. Check my NickServ taxonomy on libera.chat, if you like.) Fun (probable) fact: did you know, most trans people don't even go swimming? --- > But is he really throwing something against you? Is he insulting you directly, or do you feel insulted by his opinion? That was a tortured metaphor. We've never played catch, either, in case you were wondering. (I don't know that we've been in the same country at the same time.) I don't think Alex has ever hurt me directly; in fact, he's had access to a reasonable amount of my personal information and, as far as I know, hasn't done anything bad with it. One of the hate groups he's tech support for spent about three days harassing me online, one time. (I think it started because they were harassing one of my acquaintances for daring to put pronouns in her bio, and simultaneously work for a feminist non-profit.) Don't remember whether I was crying, but I know some of the other targets were. Does that count? > does he only accept pull requests from trans people, if they use their old name for example Not to my knowledge. Then again, it's a while since anyone I know has worked with him. > and insist on using "she" only for biological females? At one point he was trying to insist upon that; no clue whether he still does. I never knew him all that well, and it's not like I keep tabs on every bigot I've ever been social media "mutuals" with. > That would be over the line for me. Otherwise I could look over it. I'm not saying you should hate him. Heck, I don't hate him, so it'd be pretty weird for me to insist you do. But he advocates for, and aids, the harassment of people I care about. It's not about blame; it's about trust: he doesn't deserve yours.
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  "over 10% of English speakers are from cultures with a continued tradition of having more than two genders" Can you name a example? Genuinly interested. Do you mean neutrum? "But he advocates for, and aids, the harassment of people I care about." This is something not tolerable. "It's not about blame; it's about trust: he doesn't deserve yours." And he never had my trust. I never heard of him. I simply observed that on his blog he made some valid points mixed in with some prejudices and of everything else I had no idea before - and while asking exactly that further down, there came no more examples, of him doing wrong, besides having a different opinion. So my main point was and is, that this whole debate has gone off rails a long time ago. Funnily enough, yesterday I was banned from a Telegram group, I stumbled into, found they were "critical of the gender agenda", and they all had of course "homosexual friends who also thinks that", but behind the masks and after asking more questions, they turned out to be very trans- and homophobic, liked their bubble and any other viewpoint was not welcome and I got kicked out. And so here my initial comment is flagged as well, apparently from the other side. Is there really no more middle ground? Is there really only the option of choining the racists, or submitting totally to the latest progressive agenda and staying up to date to the most recent words I have to learn to not offend anyone, or otherwise risk a career ending shitstorm? This is my problem with this whole debate, it polarizes and increases the rifts in society. And it does not convince people of anything, it just scares people to speak up their mind. I am pretty progressive I think and when I still have the wrong opinion, that needs to be flagged, well, good luck convincing any "normal" people out there and not pushing them more to the other extreme side. (directed not necessarily at you, but at the people who flagged my opinion above)
  - wizzwizz4 4y ago
    > Can you name a example? Genuinly interested. I'm not the right person to ask about this, but there's a list on the Nonbinary wiki[0]. (Remember to check the Further reading and References sections; Nonbinary wiki articles can be a bit hit-or-miss.) Some of them "don't count" from a "sexuality/gender distinction" perspective, but that philosophy isn't universal in cultural studies, and I think it's starting to become less universal in mainstream feminism. > And so here my initial comment is flagged as well, apparently from the other side. So was mine – and a really trollish one's been vouched for, too. *shrug* That's just how these things go. > Is there really no more middle ground? Sure there is. • Be slightly kinder than you have to. • Don't get famous, and especially don't get internet famous. You're doing it right already. I like to think I'm doing it right (but I think I'm getting into too many internet arguments for that). > This is my problem with this whole debate, it polarizes and increases the rifts in society. The whole "debate" is recent, and artificial; I suspect it only exists to create justification for the claim that trans rights are "controversial" (despite widespread public support in places like the UK). Don't let yourself get sucked in. So long as you're not insisting when people say they don't want to engage[1] (even when they're being rude and you're being polite – remember, you might be the fifth person this week, and the other four might've been trolling bigots), and so long as you're not playing Devil's Advocate[2] or poking holes / finding gotchas, it's fine to ask questions. (If you're seeing "gotchas", it usually means that there's a drastic difference between your understanding of the subject matter and the understanding of whoever you're listening to.) Oh, and take things critically. Much feminist discourse online is very ill-informed, and I'm no exception. There are people who say Always Do X because ABC, or Never Do Y because DEF – but they're talking about their own experiences, and their reasoning might not apply universally. Don't mistake confidence for competence, and don't dismiss somebody just because they're not using the "right words" for things. Question your confidence, but don't shy overmuch away from questioning other people's: here, asking for reasoning is a much better approach than telling people they're wrong. If it's necessary to do so, emphasise why you don't understand (e.g. "My native language barely has gendered adjective declension; could you give some more examples?"), rather than that you don't understand (e.g. "why does it matter? I still don't get it"). Take this advice critically, too. [0]: https://nonbinary.wiki/wiki/Gender-variant_identities_worldwide https://nonbinary.wiki/wiki/Gender-variant_identities_worldw... [1]: https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/problem-with-educate-me/ https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/problem-with-educate-me... [2]: https://feministing.com/2014/05/30/an-open-letter-to-privileged-people-who-play-devils-advocate/ https://feministing.com/2014/05/30/an-open-letter-to-privile...

wizzwizz4 4y ago

> And asked what is a women, they would point to some human with characteristic female charaters and say "she is a woman", "and this person probably" "and this is likely a man". Pretty much. > Very concrete and refering to the biological terms. They're referring to the categories, and those categories are often described in biological terms. But they're often described in other terms, too – men are XYZ, women are ABC. There are many ways you can point at the "woman" and "man" categories, none of which are descriptions of every man or woman. Outside of mathematics, categories don't have rigid boundaries and formal definitions… unless this is the one case in all the world where they do? (Not impossible, but Occam's Razor says human cognition probably doesn't special-case this.) My claim here is experimentally falsifiable, too: if you think you've got a formal definition, provide it, and I'm happy to give you examples of hypothetical people who obviously don't fit into it, exhibiting the divergence between your definition and the real-world man/woman distinction. Side note: over 10% of English speakers are from cultures with a continued tradition of having more than two genders. It's clear they mean something other than "biological terms", so I won't labour that point. > That doesn't mean, I feel justified to go to a women only sauna and start a drama, because I feel more female that day. I understand you're trying to express… confusion? Disagreement? But so far, it seems like you get it just fine. (Unless you're saying that you frequently feel more female than you do male, in which case… I don't think HN's the right place for the ensuing discussion. Check my NickServ taxonomy on libera.chat, if you like.) Fun (probable) fact: did you know, most trans people don't even go swimming? --- > But is he really throwing something against you? Is he insulting you directly, or do you feel insulted by his opinion? That was a tortured metaphor. We've never played catch, either, in case you were wondering. (I don't know that we've been in the same country at the same time.) I don't think Alex has ever hurt me directly; in fact, he's had access to a reasonable amount of my personal information and, as far as I know, hasn't done anything bad with it. One of the hate groups he's tech support for spent about three days harassing me online, one time. (I think it started because they were harassing one of my acquaintances for daring to put pronouns in her bio, and simultaneously work for a feminist non-profit.) Don't remember whether I was crying, but I know some of the other targets were. Does that count? > does he only accept pull requests from trans people, if they use their old name for example Not to my knowledge. Then again, it's a while since anyone I know has worked with him. > and insist on using "she" only for biological females? At one point he was trying to insist upon that; no clue whether he still does. I never knew him all that well, and it's not like I keep tabs on every bigot I've ever been social media "mutuals" with. > That would be over the line for me. Otherwise I could look over it. I'm not saying you should hate him. Heck, I don't hate him, so it'd be pretty weird for me to insist you do. But he advocates for, and aids, the harassment of people I care about. It's not about blame; it's about trust: he doesn't deserve yours.

hutzlibu 4y ago
"over 10% of English speakers are from cultures with a continued tradition of having more than two genders" Can you name a example? Genuinly interested. Do you mean neutrum? "But he advocates for, and aids, the harassment of people I care about." This is something not tolerable. "It's not about blame; it's about trust: he doesn't deserve yours." And he never had my trust. I never heard of him. I simply observed that on his blog he made some valid points mixed in with some prejudices and of everything else I had no idea before - and while asking exactly that further down, there came no more examples, of him doing wrong, besides having a different opinion. So my main point was and is, that this whole debate has gone off rails a long time ago. Funnily enough, yesterday I was banned from a Telegram group, I stumbled into, found they were "critical of the gender agenda", and they all had of course "homosexual friends who also thinks that", but behind the masks and after asking more questions, they turned out to be very trans- and homophobic, liked their bubble and any other viewpoint was not welcome and I got kicked out. And so here my initial comment is flagged as well, apparently from the other side. Is there really no more middle ground? Is there really only the option of choining the racists, or submitting totally to the latest progressive agenda and staying up to date to the most recent words I have to learn to not offend anyone, or otherwise risk a career ending shitstorm? This is my problem with this whole debate, it polarizes and increases the rifts in society. And it does not convince people of anything, it just scares people to speak up their mind. I am pretty progressive I think and when I still have the wrong opinion, that needs to be flagged, well, good luck convincing any "normal" people out there and not pushing them more to the other extreme side. (directed not necessarily at you, but at the people who flagged my opinion above)
- wizzwizz4 4y ago
  > Can you name a example? Genuinly interested. I'm not the right person to ask about this, but there's a list on the Nonbinary wiki[0]. (Remember to check the Further reading and References sections; Nonbinary wiki articles can be a bit hit-or-miss.) Some of them "don't count" from a "sexuality/gender distinction" perspective, but that philosophy isn't universal in cultural studies, and I think it's starting to become less universal in mainstream feminism. > And so here my initial comment is flagged as well, apparently from the other side. So was mine – and a really trollish one's been vouched for, too. *shrug* That's just how these things go. > Is there really no more middle ground? Sure there is. • Be slightly kinder than you have to. • Don't get famous, and especially don't get internet famous. You're doing it right already. I like to think I'm doing it right (but I think I'm getting into too many internet arguments for that). > This is my problem with this whole debate, it polarizes and increases the rifts in society. The whole "debate" is recent, and artificial; I suspect it only exists to create justification for the claim that trans rights are "controversial" (despite widespread public support in places like the UK). Don't let yourself get sucked in. So long as you're not insisting when people say they don't want to engage[1] (even when they're being rude and you're being polite – remember, you might be the fifth person this week, and the other four might've been trolling bigots), and so long as you're not playing Devil's Advocate[2] or poking holes / finding gotchas, it's fine to ask questions. (If you're seeing "gotchas", it usually means that there's a drastic difference between your understanding of the subject matter and the understanding of whoever you're listening to.) Oh, and take things critically. Much feminist discourse online is very ill-informed, and I'm no exception. There are people who say Always Do X because ABC, or Never Do Y because DEF – but they're talking about their own experiences, and their reasoning might not apply universally. Don't mistake confidence for competence, and don't dismiss somebody just because they're not using the "right words" for things. Question your confidence, but don't shy overmuch away from questioning other people's: here, asking for reasoning is a much better approach than telling people they're wrong. If it's necessary to do so, emphasise why you don't understand (e.g. "My native language barely has gendered adjective declension; could you give some more examples?"), rather than that you don't understand (e.g. "why does it matter? I still don't get it"). Take this advice critically, too. [0]: https://nonbinary.wiki/wiki/Gender-variant_identities_worldwide https://nonbinary.wiki/wiki/Gender-variant_identities_worldw... [1]: https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/problem-with-educate-me/ https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/problem-with-educate-me... [2]: https://feministing.com/2014/05/30/an-open-letter-to-privileged-people-who-play-devils-advocate/ https://feministing.com/2014/05/30/an-open-letter-to-privile...