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> even though I'm a terminal user ... I really like the discoverability of GUIs, and that's where a good GUI is unbeatable by CLI. CLI has poor discoverability

> even though I'm a terminal user ... I really like the discoverability of GUIs, and that's where a good GUI is unbeatable by CLI. CLI has poor discoverability? Sure; but even on the terminal, discoverability can still be good: A couple of nice examples of discoverability in keyboard-focused programs: - emacs' which-key[0]; there's a vim port[1] too. This shows you (some) of the available keybindings for the next input, and a short label. So you don't have to remember what `SPC h p ...` or all the options under `SPC f...`.. but it still helps to recall that `SPC h` is for 'help' related commands, `SPC f` for file related commands. - emacs' magit[2][3]. Magit is so good at discoverability, that I'd rate it as the best tool for using git with. I've learned more about git from using it. [0] https://github.com/justbur/emacs-which-key https://github.com/justbur/emacs-which-key [1] https://github.com/liuchengxu/vim-which-key https://github.com/liuchengxu/vim-which-key [2] https://magit.vc/ https://magit.vc/ [3] https://emacsair.me/2017/09/01/magit-walk-through/ https://emacsair.me/2017/09/01/magit-walk-through/

j1elo 4y ago
Yeah, you're right that CLI discoverability can still be good, but that's the same "can" than when talking about how "Electron apps can be responsive and fast" when putting VSCode as the prime example... yes, they can, but only with a great deal of extra effort from the devs, compared to the instantaneous visual feedback that a new entry provides on a GUI. In practice (which is what matters, ultimately), most CLI tools don't have this desirable property of "discoverable by accident".
- rgoulter 4y ago
  Slight nit-picking; maybe the distinctions are useful for this conversation: I'd use "CLI" more precisely to refer to command-line invocation of programs (using some shell like bash, fish, or powershell). For programs like vim or nano, I think "TUI" (text-based UI, or sometimes terminal UI) is more suitable. > yes, they can, but only with a great deal of extra effort from the devs, compared to the instantaneous visual feedback that a new entry provides on a GUI. Right. I'd say instantaneous visual feedback is what helps discoverability. Both menus in a GUI, and the menus in a TUI like in the examples above, exhibit that. But, I wouldn't go so far as to say that a GUI menu is inherently discoverable. e.g. The image editor GIMP doesn't have good discoverability, despite being a GUI program with menus. Whereas e.g. nano is a TUI program, but its essential features are much more discoverable compared to vim. The new tmux-alternative zellij borrows the same "show the keymap at the bottom" feature.
  - j1elo 4y ago
    > I'd use "CLI" more precisely to refer to command-line invocation [...] For programs like vim or nano, I think "TUI" (text-based UI, or sometimes terminal UI) is more suitable. Agree! I also consider that distinction but didn't think of it when writing. Luckily we knew we were talking about the same thing :) You're right about the GIMP example, but I think that just means that being a GUI program is not an automatic, free-pass guarantee to discoverability. GUIs make software capabilities more evident by the mere fact that they are there right in your line of sight, but of course it still needs a touch of good organization. But that becomes then a matter of visual design and information overload, which is a whole new area. TUI programs can be perfectly discoverable, as any well written Ncurses app can show. I don't use many, but the first one that comes to mind is Aptitude. You can just run it and, again, most if not all of the possible actions and settings of the program are right there in front of you to explore or notice.
avgcorrection 4y ago
`which-key` is great. But that is already ubiquitous through the standard top-left drop-downs in a GUI:[1] Press `Alt-F` (File, underlined F), all options drop down, then `S` (Save, underlined S). [1] Or a standard GUI. Emacs can be run as a GUI (not terminal).

j1elo 4y ago

Yeah, you're right that CLI discoverability can still be good, but that's the same "can" than when talking about how "Electron apps can be responsive and fast" when putting VSCode as the prime example... yes, they can, but only with a great deal of extra effort from the devs, compared to the instantaneous visual feedback that a new entry provides on a GUI. In practice (which is what matters, ultimately), most CLI tools don't have this desirable property of "discoverable by accident".

rgoulter 4y ago
Slight nit-picking; maybe the distinctions are useful for this conversation: I'd use "CLI" more precisely to refer to command-line invocation of programs (using some shell like bash, fish, or powershell). For programs like vim or nano, I think "TUI" (text-based UI, or sometimes terminal UI) is more suitable. > yes, they can, but only with a great deal of extra effort from the devs, compared to the instantaneous visual feedback that a new entry provides on a GUI. Right. I'd say instantaneous visual feedback is what helps discoverability. Both menus in a GUI, and the menus in a TUI like in the examples above, exhibit that. But, I wouldn't go so far as to say that a GUI menu is inherently discoverable. e.g. The image editor GIMP doesn't have good discoverability, despite being a GUI program with menus. Whereas e.g. nano is a TUI program, but its essential features are much more discoverable compared to vim. The new tmux-alternative zellij borrows the same "show the keymap at the bottom" feature.
- j1elo 4y ago
  > I'd use "CLI" more precisely to refer to command-line invocation [...] For programs like vim or nano, I think "TUI" (text-based UI, or sometimes terminal UI) is more suitable. Agree! I also consider that distinction but didn't think of it when writing. Luckily we knew we were talking about the same thing :) You're right about the GIMP example, but I think that just means that being a GUI program is not an automatic, free-pass guarantee to discoverability. GUIs make software capabilities more evident by the mere fact that they are there right in your line of sight, but of course it still needs a touch of good organization. But that becomes then a matter of visual design and information overload, which is a whole new area. TUI programs can be perfectly discoverable, as any well written Ncurses app can show. I don't use many, but the first one that comes to mind is Aptitude. You can just run it and, again, most if not all of the possible actions and settings of the program are right there in front of you to explore or notice.

avgcorrection 4y ago

`which-key` is great. But that is already ubiquitous through the standard top-left drop-downs in a GUI:[1] Press `Alt-F` (File, underlined F), all options drop down, then `S` (Save, underlined S). [1] Or a standard GUI. Emacs can be run as a GUI (not terminal).