6 ms·

title is a little clickbaity. study only seems to talk about zinc and iron which i think while important is more telling than the vagueness of "low nutritional

by ausbah 4y ago

title is a little clickbaity. study only seems to talk about zinc and iron which i think while important is more telling than the vagueness of "low nutritional quality"

rcme 4y ago
Is it possible to have a diet with high nutritional quality without bio-available iron and zinc?
- Retric 4y ago
  That’s a misleading question. Is Meat nutritious even though it lacks vitamin C? How nutritious food is really depends on context. Potatoes cover a larger percentage of our nutritious needs than Bananas. Bananas however cover a few things lacking in normal western diets so we think of them as nutritious.
  - rcme 4y ago
    I think it would be fair to say meat lacks nutrition if it were advertised as an orange substitute. That’s the “context” you’re talking about. Meat substitutes aren’t true substitutes for meat without bio-available iron.
    - BobbyJo 4y ago
      'Vegitarian Meat', if we are talking about it's role in a diet, is a flavor/texture substitute, not a nutritional substitute. If it wasn't about the flavor, there would be pretty much no reason to buy it. If you want to pretend it is a nutritional substitute for meat, people on average suffer much more from too much, as opposed to too little, of what meat has, so it's still not really a problem.
      - rcme 4y ago
        I don't think you can really separate nutrition from flavor/texture. For instance, I cook dinner for my children every night. I want to cook tasty, flavorful food, but I also want my kids to receive adequate nutrition. Perhaps one day I'm at the store and see a meat substitute that's better for the environment. I think it's important to understand that, nutritionally, the substitute is deficient compared to meat. This is a very common thing that comes up with nut "milks." You can find an endless stream of graphs and charts that highlight how much better nut "milks" are compared to cows milk. However, the graphs never ever ever include a comparison of the nutrient content. Sure, you can say adults get too much of everything, but the same is not true for children. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends 2-3 8oz cups of milk a day for children under 5. It would be a equivalent to give your children nut "milk" instead.
        BobbyJo 4y ago
        > I don't think you can really separate nutrition from flavor/texture. You shouldn't, but you most certainly can. Cake and cookies exist. Also, you're just hand-waving away the fact that most adults in the US don't suffer from malnutrition, and the one that do often eat lots of meat. A healthy diet is just as much about what you aren't eating.
    - Retric 4y ago
      I don’t think vegetarians are really looking for Iron as Spinach provides as much as Meat. Meat substitutes are about flavor and mouth feel not nutrition, but for those with excess iron (Hemochromatosis) I am sure they will appreciate the option. Which again shows how nutrition exists in context not isolation.
      - rcme 4y ago
        That study is in rats. Non-heme iron (i.e. the iron in spinach) has repeatedly been shown to be absorbed poorly in humans. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8207546/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8207546/ > ... studies have shown that the absorption of dietary nonheme iron in rats is much higher and less responsive to dietary variables than in human subjects.
        Retric 4y ago
        “(Bezwoda, Bothwell, Charlton et al.) the bioavailability of heme iron was measured to be about 20%, while the availability of non-heme iron varied between 6% and 18% depending on the amount of iron present in the meal.” Spinach has dramatically more Iron than Beef does so being absorbed at a lower ratio is offset by a much larger quantity of Iron being in the food.
        rcme 4y ago
        2.5X per unit weight… so the get the amount of iron in a 1/4 cheeseburger you’d need to eat 0.5-1 pounds of spinach. Possible, but hard.
        Retric 4y ago
        How did you calculate that? If it’s got 2.5x as much and Bioavailability of iron in beef is ~20% and non beef ranges from 6% to 18% then… Worse case 2.5x * 0.06 / 0.20 = 75% as much per unit weight so you need 1/3 of a pound of Spinach. Best case was 2.5x * 0.18 / 0.2 = 225% so you need 1/9th of a pound. I am not saying your wrong, I just don’t get how you did that calculation.
    - bastawhiz 4y ago
      The point is that the consumers who are purchasing vegetarian meats are probably either: 1. Already vegetarian and the vegetarian meat isn't replacing foods with those nutrients because the rest of their diet already covers it 2. Omnivores looking to remove some meat from their diets, who are still getting iron and zinc from the meat that they do consume For a variety of reasons, essentially nobody is finding themselves subsisting on a diet where vegetarian meats replace their only (or primary) sources of iron and zinc.
  - amanaplanacanal 4y ago
    I don’t believe meat actually lacks vitamin C. The USDA doesn’t measure it so it is just assumed to lack vitamin C.
    - reedjosh 4y ago
      I think eating meat also doesn't require vit C to process it since there are no sugars. Scurvy only happens because of high glucose levels.
      - Retric 4y ago
        You are dangerously misinformed. https://www.health.com/diets/james-blunt-scurvy https://www.health.com/diets/james-blunt-scurvy
        reedjosh 4y ago
        Lol, very scientific source there. Some guy claims he got sick in the nineties, as reported by a source already slanted against meat consumption.
        Retric 4y ago
        It covers the topic in detail. You can find individual studies that cover parts of this topic for example how cooking destroys vitamin C. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30263756/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30263756/ But, I am not going to hand feed you dozens of studies that show why you are wrong.
        reedjosh 4y ago
        > It covers the topic in detail. I read it, but it doesn't provide much actual evidence. The details are just a bunch of tropes that sound like just what nutritionists keep pushing down Americans throats while we all get fatter and sicker. The study you link then only talks about vit C degradation in cooking. I don't see the relevance to this topic? How about a Harvard study directly refuting your original artical's claims? https://academic.oup.com/cdn/article/5/12/nzab133/6415894?login=false https://academic.oup.com/cdn/article/5/12/nzab133/6415894?lo...
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  I do regular blood work and I only eat plants, and I only supplement D3 and B12. My iron and zinc levels are great. I suppose the answer would be no, we would get sick and die without those. But it seems like you’re implying that we can’t get them without meat. If that’s correct, I’d say that’s a false assumption — I am doing great, and the rest of my family is as well. Although some nutrients appear less bioavailable in plants when tested in labs, evidently this is not true in situ. My gut feeling (ha) is that bioavailability (even with foods we consider highly available) depends quite a lot on healthy gut flora. There is some great and some more tenuous evidence of this depending on the food and nutrient in question, and I suspect it’s why some people don’t thrive on plants.
  - rcme 4y ago
    Nothing like a purely anecdotal argument involving people all genetically related! I’m aggregate, vegetarians are more likely to be iron deficient: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6367879/#abstract-1title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6367879/#abstra...
    - steve_adams_86 4y ago
      Of course, I’m simply saying that it’s possible. I also acknowledged that this differs for some people; I know I’m a single data point and my experience is my own. I would contend that vegetarians being deficient still doesn’t say that the diet overall has to be deficient. It is also not uncommon or rare for vegetarians or vegans to be very healthy, so I know I’m not a special case. Most people, regardless of their choice of diet, are going to be deficient in something. For people who eat meat in North America, a serious and common deficiency is simply fibre. It’s much less likely to be true among vegetarians, but in both cases it doesn’t need to be true. My point is that with a monitored and balanced diet, eating plant-based is not inherently deficient in anything besides B12. I know some people have difficult experiences with plant-based diets, and I suspect it’s either due to gut issues or unbalanced/non-diverse eating tendencies.

by ausbah 4y ago

title is a little clickbaity. study only seems to talk about zinc and iron which i think while important is more telling than the vagueness of "low nutritional quality"

rcme 4y ago

Is it possible to have a diet with high nutritional quality without bio-available iron and zinc?

Retric 4y ago
That’s a misleading question. Is Meat nutritious even though it lacks vitamin C? How nutritious food is really depends on context. Potatoes cover a larger percentage of our nutritious needs than Bananas. Bananas however cover a few things lacking in normal western diets so we think of them as nutritious.
- rcme 4y ago
  I think it would be fair to say meat lacks nutrition if it were advertised as an orange substitute. That’s the “context” you’re talking about. Meat substitutes aren’t true substitutes for meat without bio-available iron.
  - BobbyJo 4y ago
    'Vegitarian Meat', if we are talking about it's role in a diet, is a flavor/texture substitute, not a nutritional substitute. If it wasn't about the flavor, there would be pretty much no reason to buy it. If you want to pretend it is a nutritional substitute for meat, people on average suffer much more from too much, as opposed to too little, of what meat has, so it's still not really a problem.
    - rcme 4y ago
      I don't think you can really separate nutrition from flavor/texture. For instance, I cook dinner for my children every night. I want to cook tasty, flavorful food, but I also want my kids to receive adequate nutrition. Perhaps one day I'm at the store and see a meat substitute that's better for the environment. I think it's important to understand that, nutritionally, the substitute is deficient compared to meat. This is a very common thing that comes up with nut "milks." You can find an endless stream of graphs and charts that highlight how much better nut "milks" are compared to cows milk. However, the graphs never ever ever include a comparison of the nutrient content. Sure, you can say adults get too much of everything, but the same is not true for children. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends 2-3 8oz cups of milk a day for children under 5. It would be a equivalent to give your children nut "milk" instead.
      - BobbyJo 4y ago
        > I don't think you can really separate nutrition from flavor/texture. You shouldn't, but you most certainly can. Cake and cookies exist. Also, you're just hand-waving away the fact that most adults in the US don't suffer from malnutrition, and the one that do often eat lots of meat. A healthy diet is just as much about what you aren't eating.
  - Retric 4y ago
    I don’t think vegetarians are really looking for Iron as Spinach provides as much as Meat. Meat substitutes are about flavor and mouth feel not nutrition, but for those with excess iron (Hemochromatosis) I am sure they will appreciate the option. Which again shows how nutrition exists in context not isolation.
    - rcme 4y ago
      That study is in rats. Non-heme iron (i.e. the iron in spinach) has repeatedly been shown to be absorbed poorly in humans. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8207546/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8207546/ > ... studies have shown that the absorption of dietary nonheme iron in rats is much higher and less responsive to dietary variables than in human subjects.
      - Retric 4y ago
        “(Bezwoda, Bothwell, Charlton et al.) the bioavailability of heme iron was measured to be about 20%, while the availability of non-heme iron varied between 6% and 18% depending on the amount of iron present in the meal.” Spinach has dramatically more Iron than Beef does so being absorbed at a lower ratio is offset by a much larger quantity of Iron being in the food.
        rcme 4y ago
        2.5X per unit weight… so the get the amount of iron in a 1/4 cheeseburger you’d need to eat 0.5-1 pounds of spinach. Possible, but hard.
        Retric 4y ago
        How did you calculate that? If it’s got 2.5x as much and Bioavailability of iron in beef is ~20% and non beef ranges from 6% to 18% then… Worse case 2.5x * 0.06 / 0.20 = 75% as much per unit weight so you need 1/3 of a pound of Spinach. Best case was 2.5x * 0.18 / 0.2 = 225% so you need 1/9th of a pound. I am not saying your wrong, I just don’t get how you did that calculation.
  - bastawhiz 4y ago
    The point is that the consumers who are purchasing vegetarian meats are probably either: 1. Already vegetarian and the vegetarian meat isn't replacing foods with those nutrients because the rest of their diet already covers it 2. Omnivores looking to remove some meat from their diets, who are still getting iron and zinc from the meat that they do consume For a variety of reasons, essentially nobody is finding themselves subsisting on a diet where vegetarian meats replace their only (or primary) sources of iron and zinc.
- amanaplanacanal 4y ago
  I don’t believe meat actually lacks vitamin C. The USDA doesn’t measure it so it is just assumed to lack vitamin C.
  - reedjosh 4y ago
    I think eating meat also doesn't require vit C to process it since there are no sugars. Scurvy only happens because of high glucose levels.
    - Retric 4y ago
      You are dangerously misinformed. https://www.health.com/diets/james-blunt-scurvy https://www.health.com/diets/james-blunt-scurvy
      - reedjosh 4y ago
        Lol, very scientific source there. Some guy claims he got sick in the nineties, as reported by a source already slanted against meat consumption.
        Retric 4y ago
        It covers the topic in detail. You can find individual studies that cover parts of this topic for example how cooking destroys vitamin C. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30263756/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30263756/ But, I am not going to hand feed you dozens of studies that show why you are wrong.
        reedjosh 4y ago
        > It covers the topic in detail. I read it, but it doesn't provide much actual evidence. The details are just a bunch of tropes that sound like just what nutritionists keep pushing down Americans throats while we all get fatter and sicker. The study you link then only talks about vit C degradation in cooking. I don't see the relevance to this topic? How about a Harvard study directly refuting your original artical's claims? https://academic.oup.com/cdn/article/5/12/nzab133/6415894?login=false https://academic.oup.com/cdn/article/5/12/nzab133/6415894?lo...
steve_adams_86 4y ago
I do regular blood work and I only eat plants, and I only supplement D3 and B12. My iron and zinc levels are great. I suppose the answer would be no, we would get sick and die without those. But it seems like you’re implying that we can’t get them without meat. If that’s correct, I’d say that’s a false assumption — I am doing great, and the rest of my family is as well. Although some nutrients appear less bioavailable in plants when tested in labs, evidently this is not true in situ. My gut feeling (ha) is that bioavailability (even with foods we consider highly available) depends quite a lot on healthy gut flora. There is some great and some more tenuous evidence of this depending on the food and nutrient in question, and I suspect it’s why some people don’t thrive on plants.
- rcme 4y ago
  Nothing like a purely anecdotal argument involving people all genetically related! I’m aggregate, vegetarians are more likely to be iron deficient: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6367879/#abstract-1title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6367879/#abstra...
  - steve_adams_86 4y ago
    Of course, I’m simply saying that it’s possible. I also acknowledged that this differs for some people; I know I’m a single data point and my experience is my own. I would contend that vegetarians being deficient still doesn’t say that the diet overall has to be deficient. It is also not uncommon or rare for vegetarians or vegans to be very healthy, so I know I’m not a special case. Most people, regardless of their choice of diet, are going to be deficient in something. For people who eat meat in North America, a serious and common deficiency is simply fibre. It’s much less likely to be true among vegetarians, but in both cases it doesn’t need to be true. My point is that with a monitored and balanced diet, eating plant-based is not inherently deficient in anything besides B12. I know some people have difficult experiences with plant-based diets, and I suspect it’s either due to gut issues or unbalanced/non-diverse eating tendencies.