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Oh, thank you for mentioning digital dashboards, I completely forgot about those! So, in addition to mandatory physical controls for common functions, my imagin

Oh, thank you for mentioning digital dashboards, I completely forgot about those! So, in addition to mandatory physical controls for common functions, my imaginary EU legislation would also prescribe that all essential vehicle information (speed, outside light status, fuel level) has a physical representation (lights, dials, etc., in the sense that there is nothing that could be described as 'software' driving these). The last 'owned' car that I drove was my wife's quite-high-end Audi. It had a digital dashboard, which was OK and looked extremely cool... until those moments when it froze mid-drive, requiring an engine off/on cycle to recover. Which was really lovely on the highway, cruising along at an unknown speed... (Another charming feature of this car was that the AC would sometimes decide that going into full-blast, no-you-can't-turn-this-off, full-heat mode was a really great idea. This only took, like, five software updates and 18 months to be resolved. The issue where you couldn't cancel the keyfob-based seat personalization was never fixed, so whenever I (6'5") grabbed my wife's (5'2" on a warm day) car keys by mistake, there was lots of grinding of seat motors, trying to drive my knees and head into the car interior, while ignoring my desperate inputs to the 'move the seat back and down please' controls. Comfort feature indeed!)

kayodelycaon 4y ago
I like the dashboard in my 2014 Prius. The speedometer is digital numbers, which is great because I have trouble reading dials. Never had an issue with anything freezing up. Later Toyotas I’ve rented have full color screens. They work okay.
- PreInternet01 4y ago
  Oh, I'm fine with digital readouts, as long as there is an analog backup for when you hit that unavoidable software bug. Airplanes get this right: even on the latest Airbus, you still have the basic altitude, air/vertical speed and heading instruments, in a familiar place and configuration, based on boring physical/analog principles, just in case you need them... (and, because they're mandated by FAA [14 CFR 91] and equivalent EASA rules, which probably is for a good reason as well)
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    Those backup instruments are starting to be replaced with digital systems using a battery backup. And analog gyros have always needed a power source. (Doesn’t have to be electrical.) :)
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    Those are included on Airplanes because you need those to make a safe stop (aka Landing) you DO NOT need a speedometer or any dash display at all to safely pull a car to the side of the road and stop. Therefore they should not be mandated under safety regulation, if you have a car with a digital display and it fails you pull your car to the side of the road, put on your hazards and call for a tow to the mechanic Just like in a airplane if it has a problem you find the closest safe landing spot, put the plan down, and call for a mechanic.
    - klyrs 4y ago
      Given that it's unsafe to drive too fast and "too fast" depends greatly on the specific road you're driving on and weather conditions, speedometers are safety equipment.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        In those cases speed dependent on driving condition is a feeling based on the experience of the driver. Speedometer does not help you there. If you do not have a feeling for the safety under which you are operating, then perhaps you should not be driving in the first place? Which I believe that is the underlying problem here, We are too lax with whom we issue driving licenses too.
        klyrs 4y ago
        > Speedometer does not help you there. Oh but it does! A blind corner will kill drivers going by feel alone, who don't have experience on that particular stretch of road. Feel alone doesn't inform you that you're in a school zone (until catastrophically too late). Remember, the driver isn't just a hazard to themselves, they're a hazard to everybody in their path. How do you propose to limit licensing to experienced drivers in such a way that inexperienced drivers are capable of gaining the experience necessary to drive?
- dmm10 4y ago
  Anecdata and another case against center-dash touch control panels -which are integrated with control units. Our 2013 Prius just had the center-dash unit crash likely due to the audio sub-system. And it would have burned but for a fuse blowing (replacing the fuse lead to smoking.) This took out the rear camera display along with climate controls, audio, ... Fortunately someone at the Toyota shop we patronize had just replaced their same model year working unit with an iPad (hence learned that's a thing in the US even if illegal in the UK.) So what was going to be a ~$2,000 USD rebuilt unit (~$5,000 OEM new but a guy in town rebuilds them because there is apparently enough demand) was going to be less expensive. Unfortunately, our Prius's unit seems to be unique to a particular finish/package for the model. And this particular unit type (a JBL variant) has connectors different from all other Toyota center console units. Gist of the situation: failure of what is likely the audio section of the integrated center-dash unit took out rear camera, climate controls, audio, etc. with high price tag to repair when simple loss of audio unit would have been ignored.
closewith 4y ago
> So, in addition to mandatory physical controls for common functions, my imaginary EU legislation would also prescribe that all essential vehicle information (speed, outside light status, fuel level) has a physical representation (lights, dials, etc., in the sense that there is nothing that could be described as 'software' driving these). We're way past that. All (to a rounding error) modern analogue dials are also controlled by software via the ECU. This has been true for decades now. Few cars even have a mechanical throttle linkage anymore.
wolrah 4y ago
> my imaginary EU legislation would also prescribe that all essential vehicle information (speed, outside light status, fuel level) has a physical representation (lights, dials, etc., in the sense that there is nothing that could be described as 'software' driving these). Even "analog" gauges have been software driven for a long time now. My simracing seat setup has a gauge cluster out of a mid-2000s VW Passat that runs entirely on CAN. If it does a gauge sweep when you turn it in you can be pretty certain it's software controlled, even if it has physical dials. This obviously hasn't been a major problem, so software control is not the issue here, bad quality software control is.
causality0 4y ago
I cannot imagine how anybody can stand the constantly changing value of a digital speedometer as it flickers around whatever your intended speed is. Give me a needle any day.
- antiterra 4y ago
  The majority of digital speedos these days have a needle drawn with an acceptably high refresh rate and low latency.
- newaccount74 4y ago
  I have a digital speedometer with a 7 segment display in my Citroen and it doesn't flicker at all. It updates roughly once a second or so -- quick enough to feel responsive, but slow enough to not annoy me.
- bruce343434 4y ago
  My 2 cents: generally the speedometer is always somehow just enough out of "default driving view" that I don't really see it, I have to actively look at it. And when I do, a plain number is easier and faster to parse.
InCityDreams 4y ago
>The last 'owned' car that I drove was my wife's quite-high-end Audi. It had a digital dashboard, which was OK and looked extremely cool... until those moments when..... So, wtf did you put up with all that (presuming it wasnt a company car)? And, even then, you should have a trail of paperwork a mile/ kilometre long to audi - publish all that.
- buildbot 4y ago
  I’ve had 2 Audis now with the virtual cockpit and literally never had an issue- this seems like something an Audi dealer would replace under warranty as defective right away.
  - perth 4y ago
    Well, after 2 failed attempts at fixing under mandatory Lemon Law replacement of course :)
    - buildbot 4y ago
      Hmm was it purchased during the chip shortage? I wonder if it had a bad redesign to switch some small IC out or even some counterfeit ICs.

kayodelycaon 4y ago

I like the dashboard in my 2014 Prius. The speedometer is digital numbers, which is great because I have trouble reading dials. Never had an issue with anything freezing up. Later Toyotas I’ve rented have full color screens. They work okay.

PreInternet01 4y ago
Oh, I'm fine with digital readouts, as long as there is an analog backup for when you hit that unavoidable software bug. Airplanes get this right: even on the latest Airbus, you still have the basic altitude, air/vertical speed and heading instruments, in a familiar place and configuration, based on boring physical/analog principles, just in case you need them... (and, because they're mandated by FAA [14 CFR 91] and equivalent EASA rules, which probably is for a good reason as well)
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  Those backup instruments are starting to be replaced with digital systems using a battery backup. And analog gyros have always needed a power source. (Doesn’t have to be electrical.) :)
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  Those are included on Airplanes because you need those to make a safe stop (aka Landing) you DO NOT need a speedometer or any dash display at all to safely pull a car to the side of the road and stop. Therefore they should not be mandated under safety regulation, if you have a car with a digital display and it fails you pull your car to the side of the road, put on your hazards and call for a tow to the mechanic Just like in a airplane if it has a problem you find the closest safe landing spot, put the plan down, and call for a mechanic.
  - klyrs 4y ago
    Given that it's unsafe to drive too fast and "too fast" depends greatly on the specific road you're driving on and weather conditions, speedometers are safety equipment.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      In those cases speed dependent on driving condition is a feeling based on the experience of the driver. Speedometer does not help you there. If you do not have a feeling for the safety under which you are operating, then perhaps you should not be driving in the first place? Which I believe that is the underlying problem here, We are too lax with whom we issue driving licenses too.
      - klyrs 4y ago
        > Speedometer does not help you there. Oh but it does! A blind corner will kill drivers going by feel alone, who don't have experience on that particular stretch of road. Feel alone doesn't inform you that you're in a school zone (until catastrophically too late). Remember, the driver isn't just a hazard to themselves, they're a hazard to everybody in their path. How do you propose to limit licensing to experienced drivers in such a way that inexperienced drivers are capable of gaining the experience necessary to drive?
dmm10 4y ago
Anecdata and another case against center-dash touch control panels -which are integrated with control units. Our 2013 Prius just had the center-dash unit crash likely due to the audio sub-system. And it would have burned but for a fuse blowing (replacing the fuse lead to smoking.) This took out the rear camera display along with climate controls, audio, ... Fortunately someone at the Toyota shop we patronize had just replaced their same model year working unit with an iPad (hence learned that's a thing in the US even if illegal in the UK.) So what was going to be a ~$2,000 USD rebuilt unit (~$5,000 OEM new but a guy in town rebuilds them because there is apparently enough demand) was going to be less expensive. Unfortunately, our Prius's unit seems to be unique to a particular finish/package for the model. And this particular unit type (a JBL variant) has connectors different from all other Toyota center console units. Gist of the situation: failure of what is likely the audio section of the integrated center-dash unit took out rear camera, climate controls, audio, etc. with high price tag to repair when simple loss of audio unit would have been ignored.

closewith 4y ago

> So, in addition to mandatory physical controls for common functions, my imaginary EU legislation would also prescribe that all essential vehicle information (speed, outside light status, fuel level) has a physical representation (lights, dials, etc., in the sense that there is nothing that could be described as 'software' driving these). We're way past that. All (to a rounding error) modern analogue dials are also controlled by software via the ECU. This has been true for decades now. Few cars even have a mechanical throttle linkage anymore.

wolrah 4y ago

> my imaginary EU legislation would also prescribe that all essential vehicle information (speed, outside light status, fuel level) has a physical representation (lights, dials, etc., in the sense that there is nothing that could be described as 'software' driving these). Even "analog" gauges have been software driven for a long time now. My simracing seat setup has a gauge cluster out of a mid-2000s VW Passat that runs entirely on CAN. If it does a gauge sweep when you turn it in you can be pretty certain it's software controlled, even if it has physical dials. This obviously hasn't been a major problem, so software control is not the issue here, bad quality software control is.

causality0 4y ago

I cannot imagine how anybody can stand the constantly changing value of a digital speedometer as it flickers around whatever your intended speed is. Give me a needle any day.

antiterra 4y ago
The majority of digital speedos these days have a needle drawn with an acceptably high refresh rate and low latency.
newaccount74 4y ago
I have a digital speedometer with a 7 segment display in my Citroen and it doesn't flicker at all. It updates roughly once a second or so -- quick enough to feel responsive, but slow enough to not annoy me.
bruce343434 4y ago
My 2 cents: generally the speedometer is always somehow just enough out of "default driving view" that I don't really see it, I have to actively look at it. And when I do, a plain number is easier and faster to parse.

InCityDreams 4y ago

>The last 'owned' car that I drove was my wife's quite-high-end Audi. It had a digital dashboard, which was OK and looked extremely cool... until those moments when..... So, wtf did you put up with all that (presuming it wasnt a company car)? And, even then, you should have a trail of paperwork a mile/ kilometre long to audi - publish all that.

buildbot 4y ago
I’ve had 2 Audis now with the virtual cockpit and literally never had an issue- this seems like something an Audi dealer would replace under warranty as defective right away.
- perth 4y ago
  Well, after 2 failed attempts at fixing under mandatory Lemon Law replacement of course :)
  - buildbot 4y ago
    Hmm was it purchased during the chip shortage? I wonder if it had a bad redesign to switch some small IC out or even some counterfeit ICs.