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I've seen acceptance of all kinds of avant-garde music here but the one genre that repeatedly gets called out as perhaps not fitting the requirements for qualif

I've seen acceptance of all kinds of avant-garde music here but the one genre that repeatedly gets called out as perhaps not fitting the requirements for qualifying as music is rap. Couldn't help think of that with your description. It's too bad because even with endless repetition and copying it's a genre that continues to innovate every year, eg Playboi Carti who is among the most popular yet works in the realm of the a-g.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
Yes and how people talk about hip hop in our era is how people talked about jazz in an earlier one. Mainstream audiences and white critics hated it for a long time, dismissed it as unserious or unmusical. A lot of that dynamic is paved over by its later prestige and unmistakable role as a cultural force. But a lot of the people who hate hip hop would have hated jazz too, if they had lived contemporaneous with its rise.
seanhunter 4y ago
Speaking as an ex-professional Jazz Musician and someone who loves 20th and 21st C music in the Western "Classical" tradition, I can categorically say that there is hiphop that qualifies as great music.[1] Like all popular genres of music there is plenty of junk though. As Louis Armstrong said "There's only two kinds of music, good music and bad music... and we play good music". [1] A few simple examples from artists that HN folks may not be super familiar with to prove my point: Little Simz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxfGQ2AJHGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxfGQ2AJHGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh8Q2iytzns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh8Q2iytzns Dave (this was live at the UK's version of the Emmys and noone knew he was going to do the verse about then Prime Minister Boris Johnson at the end so it caused a real stir). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXLS2IzZSdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXLS2IzZSdg
navane 4y ago
Where current popular music (I would call it EDM) is pushing the sound more than the song, rap is obviously about the words. Maybe hence the schism in the value of rap in music.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  my example, carti, is much more about the sound and feeling as it is the words. people who require rap to have so-called elevated/intelligent lyrics are most challenged by his music and seem stuck in older ideas of what it ought to be the criticism i read most often here is that rap lacks melody as a requirement of music - two absurd ideas
- peteforde 4y ago
  That is not an educated or reasonable conclusion, and not just because rappers artists use their voice as a (tuned) instrument. There's countless examples of rappers incorporating, collaborating with and evolving every genre. One of my favs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZTYgq4EoRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZTYgq4EoRo
  - navane 4y ago
    I like Kendrick, but the example track you give is exemplary of my first comment: it is not pushing any boundaries musically. It is literally a jazz piece, used as backing for a very lyrical rap. A jazz piece even, that already solidified in the jazz era of the early 20th century. Musically Kendricks track pushes no boundaries and is an easily recognized style that exists for almost a century. Of course Kendricks work is pushing boundaries. He has an excellent produced voice, the rap a timbre and meter that is fresh. These are musical components of his words, but mere details in all the music in this track. However, the words in his rap are not details. Personally I have never been into words in music. I barely could hear them growing up listening to metal, and still only register a phrase or two in music today. If you see music and lyrics as different things, I see how you would give rap a bad rap, musically speaking. My current fav (I can only understand every fifth word obviously): https://soundcloud.com/icespiceee/ice-spice-no-clarity https://soundcloud.com/icespiceee/ice-spice-no-clarity
tessierashpool 4y ago
> the one genre that repeatedly gets called out as perhaps not fitting the requirements for qualifying as music is rap. holy crap, where are you seeing this happen? I haven't encountered that kind of thing since literally the 1990s. possibly even the 80s.

giraffe_lady 4y ago

Yes and how people talk about hip hop in our era is how people talked about jazz in an earlier one. Mainstream audiences and white critics hated it for a long time, dismissed it as unserious or unmusical. A lot of that dynamic is paved over by its later prestige and unmistakable role as a cultural force. But a lot of the people who hate hip hop would have hated jazz too, if they had lived contemporaneous with its rise.

seanhunter 4y ago

Speaking as an ex-professional Jazz Musician and someone who loves 20th and 21st C music in the Western "Classical" tradition, I can categorically say that there is hiphop that qualifies as great music.[1] Like all popular genres of music there is plenty of junk though. As Louis Armstrong said "There's only two kinds of music, good music and bad music... and we play good music". [1] A few simple examples from artists that HN folks may not be super familiar with to prove my point: Little Simz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxfGQ2AJHGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxfGQ2AJHGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh8Q2iytzns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh8Q2iytzns Dave (this was live at the UK's version of the Emmys and noone knew he was going to do the verse about then Prime Minister Boris Johnson at the end so it caused a real stir). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXLS2IzZSdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXLS2IzZSdg

navane 4y ago

Where current popular music (I would call it EDM) is pushing the sound more than the song, rap is obviously about the words. Maybe hence the schism in the value of rap in music.

wahnfrieden 4y ago
my example, carti, is much more about the sound and feeling as it is the words. people who require rap to have so-called elevated/intelligent lyrics are most challenged by his music and seem stuck in older ideas of what it ought to be the criticism i read most often here is that rap lacks melody as a requirement of music - two absurd ideas
peteforde 4y ago
That is not an educated or reasonable conclusion, and not just because rappers artists use their voice as a (tuned) instrument. There's countless examples of rappers incorporating, collaborating with and evolving every genre. One of my favs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZTYgq4EoRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZTYgq4EoRo
- navane 4y ago
  I like Kendrick, but the example track you give is exemplary of my first comment: it is not pushing any boundaries musically. It is literally a jazz piece, used as backing for a very lyrical rap. A jazz piece even, that already solidified in the jazz era of the early 20th century. Musically Kendricks track pushes no boundaries and is an easily recognized style that exists for almost a century. Of course Kendricks work is pushing boundaries. He has an excellent produced voice, the rap a timbre and meter that is fresh. These are musical components of his words, but mere details in all the music in this track. However, the words in his rap are not details. Personally I have never been into words in music. I barely could hear them growing up listening to metal, and still only register a phrase or two in music today. If you see music and lyrics as different things, I see how you would give rap a bad rap, musically speaking. My current fav (I can only understand every fifth word obviously): https://soundcloud.com/icespiceee/ice-spice-no-clarity https://soundcloud.com/icespiceee/ice-spice-no-clarity

tessierashpool 4y ago

> the one genre that repeatedly gets called out as perhaps not fitting the requirements for qualifying as music is rap. holy crap, where are you seeing this happen? I haven't encountered that kind of thing since literally the 1990s. possibly even the 80s.