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At every moment in history there were artists moving the boundaries of what was considered music. Every so often, a near past style was frozen and called a genr

by navane 4y ago

At every moment in history there were artists moving the boundaries of what was considered music. Every so often, a near past style was frozen and called a genre, you could call it a major version. Once the jazz as most people know it was part of a movement pushing those boundaries, but so was debussy, chopin, or almost any other composer. Now, this jazz has little freedom and has more in common with classical music, as most boundaries of the genre are fixed. Of course other jazz is still pushing, and because of that it is a less clear defined part of the genre. My personal favorite is Keith Jarrett, clearly owing to Monk, with the Tokyo concert. His Koln concert is better known, and less avant guarde, the Tokio requires full attention from the listener. I like the articles focus on a single person, as jazz itself grew so wide it is hard to say anything about it. The concept jazz can be better understood by learning about the individual concrete parts of it, rather than sweeping generalizations.

wahnfrieden 4y ago
I've seen acceptance of all kinds of avant-garde music here but the one genre that repeatedly gets called out as perhaps not fitting the requirements for qualifying as music is rap. Couldn't help think of that with your description. It's too bad because even with endless repetition and copying it's a genre that continues to innovate every year, eg Playboi Carti who is among the most popular yet works in the realm of the a-g.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  Yes and how people talk about hip hop in our era is how people talked about jazz in an earlier one. Mainstream audiences and white critics hated it for a long time, dismissed it as unserious or unmusical. A lot of that dynamic is paved over by its later prestige and unmistakable role as a cultural force. But a lot of the people who hate hip hop would have hated jazz too, if they had lived contemporaneous with its rise.
- seanhunter 4y ago
  Speaking as an ex-professional Jazz Musician and someone who loves 20th and 21st C music in the Western "Classical" tradition, I can categorically say that there is hiphop that qualifies as great music.[1] Like all popular genres of music there is plenty of junk though. As Louis Armstrong said "There's only two kinds of music, good music and bad music... and we play good music". [1] A few simple examples from artists that HN folks may not be super familiar with to prove my point: Little Simz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxfGQ2AJHGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxfGQ2AJHGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh8Q2iytzns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh8Q2iytzns Dave (this was live at the UK's version of the Emmys and noone knew he was going to do the verse about then Prime Minister Boris Johnson at the end so it caused a real stir). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXLS2IzZSdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXLS2IzZSdg
- navane 4y ago
  Where current popular music (I would call it EDM) is pushing the sound more than the song, rap is obviously about the words. Maybe hence the schism in the value of rap in music.
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    my example, carti, is much more about the sound and feeling as it is the words. people who require rap to have so-called elevated/intelligent lyrics are most challenged by his music and seem stuck in older ideas of what it ought to be the criticism i read most often here is that rap lacks melody as a requirement of music - two absurd ideas
  - peteforde 4y ago
    That is not an educated or reasonable conclusion, and not just because rappers artists use their voice as a (tuned) instrument. There's countless examples of rappers incorporating, collaborating with and evolving every genre. One of my favs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZTYgq4EoRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZTYgq4EoRo
    - navane 4y ago
      I like Kendrick, but the example track you give is exemplary of my first comment: it is not pushing any boundaries musically. It is literally a jazz piece, used as backing for a very lyrical rap. A jazz piece even, that already solidified in the jazz era of the early 20th century. Musically Kendricks track pushes no boundaries and is an easily recognized style that exists for almost a century. Of course Kendricks work is pushing boundaries. He has an excellent produced voice, the rap a timbre and meter that is fresh. These are musical components of his words, but mere details in all the music in this track. However, the words in his rap are not details. Personally I have never been into words in music. I barely could hear them growing up listening to metal, and still only register a phrase or two in music today. If you see music and lyrics as different things, I see how you would give rap a bad rap, musically speaking. My current fav (I can only understand every fifth word obviously): https://soundcloud.com/icespiceee/ice-spice-no-clarity https://soundcloud.com/icespiceee/ice-spice-no-clarity
- tessierashpool 4y ago
  > the one genre that repeatedly gets called out as perhaps not fitting the requirements for qualifying as music is rap. holy crap, where are you seeing this happen? I haven't encountered that kind of thing since literally the 1990s. possibly even the 80s.
tmountain 4y ago
Classical musicians (Chopin, etc) were noted for their improvisational capabilities, and there were many famous jam sessions throughout their respective time periods. Unfortunately, the technology didn’t exist to capture those moments, so we can only imagine what may have transpired.
- dpicco 4y ago
  Chopin really played with time, and his enclosures and chromatic trills are heard later in musicians like Django Reinhardt. No doubt of influence in Jazz for my ear, as music is a continuum of evolution, even if some artists like Monk bring a new oblique perspective.
- klik99 4y ago
  Baroque was a particularly strong time for improvisation - Bach was more well known as an improvisor in his life time than a composer (or for his educational pieces which is what he was known for right after his death). At music school I knew a few baroque improvisors, a good one on the harpsichord is one of my favorite music, really miss that.
rollcat 4y ago
It's why I have tremendous respect for bands like King Crimson. You could tell their 1969 debut album has very heavy jazz influences. They've disbanded and re-birthed themselves about a dozen times since then, each time with a new line-up and both a fresh take on new compositions, and re-imagining of the old stuff. Last time they were active was 2021, but at this point I'm sure they'll play again.

by navane 4y ago

wahnfrieden 4y ago

I've seen acceptance of all kinds of avant-garde music here but the one genre that repeatedly gets called out as perhaps not fitting the requirements for qualifying as music is rap. Couldn't help think of that with your description. It's too bad because even with endless repetition and copying it's a genre that continues to innovate every year, eg Playboi Carti who is among the most popular yet works in the realm of the a-g.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
Yes and how people talk about hip hop in our era is how people talked about jazz in an earlier one. Mainstream audiences and white critics hated it for a long time, dismissed it as unserious or unmusical. A lot of that dynamic is paved over by its later prestige and unmistakable role as a cultural force. But a lot of the people who hate hip hop would have hated jazz too, if they had lived contemporaneous with its rise.
seanhunter 4y ago
Speaking as an ex-professional Jazz Musician and someone who loves 20th and 21st C music in the Western "Classical" tradition, I can categorically say that there is hiphop that qualifies as great music.[1] Like all popular genres of music there is plenty of junk though. As Louis Armstrong said "There's only two kinds of music, good music and bad music... and we play good music". [1] A few simple examples from artists that HN folks may not be super familiar with to prove my point: Little Simz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxfGQ2AJHGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxfGQ2AJHGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh8Q2iytzns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh8Q2iytzns Dave (this was live at the UK's version of the Emmys and noone knew he was going to do the verse about then Prime Minister Boris Johnson at the end so it caused a real stir). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXLS2IzZSdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXLS2IzZSdg
navane 4y ago
Where current popular music (I would call it EDM) is pushing the sound more than the song, rap is obviously about the words. Maybe hence the schism in the value of rap in music.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  my example, carti, is much more about the sound and feeling as it is the words. people who require rap to have so-called elevated/intelligent lyrics are most challenged by his music and seem stuck in older ideas of what it ought to be the criticism i read most often here is that rap lacks melody as a requirement of music - two absurd ideas
- peteforde 4y ago
  That is not an educated or reasonable conclusion, and not just because rappers artists use their voice as a (tuned) instrument. There's countless examples of rappers incorporating, collaborating with and evolving every genre. One of my favs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZTYgq4EoRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZTYgq4EoRo
  - navane 4y ago
    I like Kendrick, but the example track you give is exemplary of my first comment: it is not pushing any boundaries musically. It is literally a jazz piece, used as backing for a very lyrical rap. A jazz piece even, that already solidified in the jazz era of the early 20th century. Musically Kendricks track pushes no boundaries and is an easily recognized style that exists for almost a century. Of course Kendricks work is pushing boundaries. He has an excellent produced voice, the rap a timbre and meter that is fresh. These are musical components of his words, but mere details in all the music in this track. However, the words in his rap are not details. Personally I have never been into words in music. I barely could hear them growing up listening to metal, and still only register a phrase or two in music today. If you see music and lyrics as different things, I see how you would give rap a bad rap, musically speaking. My current fav (I can only understand every fifth word obviously): https://soundcloud.com/icespiceee/ice-spice-no-clarity https://soundcloud.com/icespiceee/ice-spice-no-clarity
tessierashpool 4y ago
> the one genre that repeatedly gets called out as perhaps not fitting the requirements for qualifying as music is rap. holy crap, where are you seeing this happen? I haven't encountered that kind of thing since literally the 1990s. possibly even the 80s.

tmountain 4y ago

Classical musicians (Chopin, etc) were noted for their improvisational capabilities, and there were many famous jam sessions throughout their respective time periods. Unfortunately, the technology didn’t exist to capture those moments, so we can only imagine what may have transpired.

dpicco 4y ago
Chopin really played with time, and his enclosures and chromatic trills are heard later in musicians like Django Reinhardt. No doubt of influence in Jazz for my ear, as music is a continuum of evolution, even if some artists like Monk bring a new oblique perspective.
klik99 4y ago
Baroque was a particularly strong time for improvisation - Bach was more well known as an improvisor in his life time than a composer (or for his educational pieces which is what he was known for right after his death). At music school I knew a few baroque improvisors, a good one on the harpsichord is one of my favorite music, really miss that.

rollcat 4y ago

It's why I have tremendous respect for bands like King Crimson. You could tell their 1969 debut album has very heavy jazz influences. They've disbanded and re-birthed themselves about a dozen times since then, each time with a new line-up and both a fresh take on new compositions, and re-imagining of the old stuff. Last time they were active was 2021, but at this point I'm sure they'll play again.