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Honestly, I feel like "ritual use" makes for a good placeholder. Cliché is better than creativity, in this instance. Everyone knows "ritual objects" means stuf

Honestly, I feel like "ritual use" makes for a good placeholder. Cliché is better than creativity, in this instance. Everyone knows "ritual objects" means stuff without known/obvious use. We know that people's stuff is often hard to explain, with context. This captures it. Also, a lot of what people do is ritual. We may not see our culture this way, but it's often a good description. What's a credit card signature? What's a baseball trophy, fidget spinner or star ears figurine?

david-gpu 4y ago
> Everyone knows "ritual objects" means stuff without known/obvious use How to distinguish between "for ritual use (for real)" vs. "for ritual use (nudge, nudge, wink wink)"? Why not say "we don't know yet", instead? Like a normal person.
- Retric 4y ago
  Because we don’t know if anything from archeology is “for ritual use (for real).” Sometimes people just do odd stuff because it’s cool. Mount Rushmore should make you wonder about giant ancient statues. In 10,000 years people might be looking a remnants of Christ the Redeemer statue and think it’s clearly for ritual use. But we know it isn’t for ‘ritual use (for real)’ so someone making such an obvious leap would be wrong, thus making other such seemingly obvious leaps could just as easily be wrong.
  - permo-w 4y ago
    I would think that Christ the Redeemer would be a good example of something that is largely for ritual use
    - Retric 4y ago
      What specific rituals would you you say it was built for?
      - permo-w 4y ago
        Christian deity worship
        Retric 4y ago
        I understand your point, but that’s not a specific ritual. Sacramental wine is created for a specific ritual, houses of warship are made for many rituals but it’s easy to pick one of them as an example. But you can’t point to a specific example here because that’s not what it was built for. To be clear people have weddings for example at all kinds of interesting buildings, but only some of them where built for that reason. This might seem trivial but it is a meaningful distinction otherwise essentially anything interesting becomes a ritual object.
        permo-w 4y ago
        I do see your point too; it could very much be argued that it’s not for ritual use per se, but it’s debatable, and not a good example of something that’s certainly not for ritual use, which is how the commenter was using it
  - gradschool 4y ago
    > we don’t know if anything from archeology is “for ritual use (for real).” I apologize for being unable resist thinking of a counterexample any time someone makes a generalization. Would household utensils found in a sealed burial chamber be a clear case of ritual use for real, or did dead people in ancient times put them to some practical use we haven't identified?
    - Retric 4y ago
      I do think people getting buried in clothing qualifies as ritualistic when the body was presented for an open casket funeral. However, people still regularly get buried with their wedding rings or similar such items. Do you consider that behavior ritualistic, or just sentimental?
      - lostlogin 4y ago
        > Do you consider that behavior ritualistic, or just sentimental? If you squint a little is a bit of overlap in the definitions of those words. I think that’s where the practice lies. Sentimental: A: marked or governed by feeling, sensibility, or emotional idealism B: resulting from feeling rather than reason or thought Ritual: 1: the established form for a ceremony specifically : the order of words prescribed for a religious ceremony 2A: ritual observance specifically : a system of rites B: a ceremonial act or action C: an act or series of acts regularly repeated in a set precise manner https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary
        Retric 4y ago
        That’s fair. I can’t help but point out that “if you squint a little” is grounds for a great deal of debate. It’s exactly the kind of thinking that makes some sort of “ritual object (for real)” hard to distinguish even when actually living in the culture in question.
        lostlogin 4y ago
        Touché!
  - dalbasal 4y ago
    Mount Rushmore is a good example. Ancestral leaders, mythical heroes, apocryphal stories. When we describe the cult of a dead Pharaoh of living roman emperor, we're quite comfortable using terms like "cult," "rite," and such. When describing contemporary culture, we call it a political monument, a cultural heritage symbol or a national monument. To future archeology, it's all the same. Washington can be described in the same terms Nefertiti and the reverse. Visitors to the statue are pilgrims. Events taking place there are "performed rites." It's not wrong describe constitutional judges as a priests endowed with mysterious abilities to commune with spirits of the past to gain knowledge of constitutional mystery. These rites are not that different from the oracle of Delphi. Why/how isn't Christ the Redeemer a "ritual object." It's a statue of a god worshipped extensively by the people who live in Rio. It has artistic, religious & cultural meaning. Every day, millions of people cross themselves, say prayers, take mass or perform other christian rites. Why is Christ the Redeemer different to the Sphinx or Jupiter? You can replace "ritual object" with "cultural object."
    - Retric 4y ago
      If we want to use cultural object then sure but saying ritual object implies something. Suggesting the Kaaba in Mecca is the same category of thing as a giant ball of yarn roadside attraction misses a great deal of context. Similarly the Supreme Court isn’t really different than any other aspect of government. They have their rituals, but the court had no problem adapting to COVID restrictions and having everyone work remotely.
  - Eleison23 4y ago
    [dead]
rozab 4y ago
I once read a great article on HN which I now can't find, which linked Skinner's superstitious pigeons with the development of human technology. As told by this article, the Burke and Wills expedition in Australia encountered friendly aboriginals who shared with them a grain called nardoo which they ritually prepared. The preparation was convoluted, with many steps which seemed superfluous. After relations broke down, the party attempted to prepare and consume the nardoo as they had observed but quickly succumbed to illness and death. It turns out that nardoo is extremely toxic without being processed in a very specific way. To Burke and Wills this process looked like a religious ritual. Perhaps many of the steps in the preparation were pointless, but the superstition of the aboriginals in doing it exactly this way was vital because a small change in the process could lead to illness. We definitely still see this sort of superstition in Western cooking today, Adam Ragusea does a lot of fun mythbusting in this area.
- dingusdew 4y ago
  Similar to theories on why Judaism forbids eating shellfish and pork, potentially pointing to a history of death from spoiled shellfish and pork, thus leading to a religious doctrine to avoid them.

david-gpu 4y ago

> Everyone knows "ritual objects" means stuff without known/obvious use How to distinguish between "for ritual use (for real)" vs. "for ritual use (nudge, nudge, wink wink)"? Why not say "we don't know yet", instead? Like a normal person.

Retric 4y ago
Because we don’t know if anything from archeology is “for ritual use (for real).” Sometimes people just do odd stuff because it’s cool. Mount Rushmore should make you wonder about giant ancient statues. In 10,000 years people might be looking a remnants of Christ the Redeemer statue and think it’s clearly for ritual use. But we know it isn’t for ‘ritual use (for real)’ so someone making such an obvious leap would be wrong, thus making other such seemingly obvious leaps could just as easily be wrong.
- permo-w 4y ago
  I would think that Christ the Redeemer would be a good example of something that is largely for ritual use
  - Retric 4y ago
    What specific rituals would you you say it was built for?
    - permo-w 4y ago
      Christian deity worship
      - Retric 4y ago
        I understand your point, but that’s not a specific ritual. Sacramental wine is created for a specific ritual, houses of warship are made for many rituals but it’s easy to pick one of them as an example. But you can’t point to a specific example here because that’s not what it was built for. To be clear people have weddings for example at all kinds of interesting buildings, but only some of them where built for that reason. This might seem trivial but it is a meaningful distinction otherwise essentially anything interesting becomes a ritual object.
        permo-w 4y ago
        I do see your point too; it could very much be argued that it’s not for ritual use per se, but it’s debatable, and not a good example of something that’s certainly not for ritual use, which is how the commenter was using it
- gradschool 4y ago
  > we don’t know if anything from archeology is “for ritual use (for real).” I apologize for being unable resist thinking of a counterexample any time someone makes a generalization. Would household utensils found in a sealed burial chamber be a clear case of ritual use for real, or did dead people in ancient times put them to some practical use we haven't identified?
  - Retric 4y ago
    I do think people getting buried in clothing qualifies as ritualistic when the body was presented for an open casket funeral. However, people still regularly get buried with their wedding rings or similar such items. Do you consider that behavior ritualistic, or just sentimental?
    - lostlogin 4y ago
      > Do you consider that behavior ritualistic, or just sentimental? If you squint a little is a bit of overlap in the definitions of those words. I think that’s where the practice lies. Sentimental: A: marked or governed by feeling, sensibility, or emotional idealism B: resulting from feeling rather than reason or thought Ritual: 1: the established form for a ceremony specifically : the order of words prescribed for a religious ceremony 2A: ritual observance specifically : a system of rites B: a ceremonial act or action C: an act or series of acts regularly repeated in a set precise manner https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary
      - Retric 4y ago
        That’s fair. I can’t help but point out that “if you squint a little” is grounds for a great deal of debate. It’s exactly the kind of thinking that makes some sort of “ritual object (for real)” hard to distinguish even when actually living in the culture in question.
        lostlogin 4y ago
        Touché!
- dalbasal 4y ago
  Mount Rushmore is a good example. Ancestral leaders, mythical heroes, apocryphal stories. When we describe the cult of a dead Pharaoh of living roman emperor, we're quite comfortable using terms like "cult," "rite," and such. When describing contemporary culture, we call it a political monument, a cultural heritage symbol or a national monument. To future archeology, it's all the same. Washington can be described in the same terms Nefertiti and the reverse. Visitors to the statue are pilgrims. Events taking place there are "performed rites." It's not wrong describe constitutional judges as a priests endowed with mysterious abilities to commune with spirits of the past to gain knowledge of constitutional mystery. These rites are not that different from the oracle of Delphi. Why/how isn't Christ the Redeemer a "ritual object." It's a statue of a god worshipped extensively by the people who live in Rio. It has artistic, religious & cultural meaning. Every day, millions of people cross themselves, say prayers, take mass or perform other christian rites. Why is Christ the Redeemer different to the Sphinx or Jupiter? You can replace "ritual object" with "cultural object."
  - Retric 4y ago
    If we want to use cultural object then sure but saying ritual object implies something. Suggesting the Kaaba in Mecca is the same category of thing as a giant ball of yarn roadside attraction misses a great deal of context. Similarly the Supreme Court isn’t really different than any other aspect of government. They have their rituals, but the court had no problem adapting to COVID restrictions and having everyone work remotely.
- Eleison23 4y ago
  [dead]

rozab 4y ago

I once read a great article on HN which I now can't find, which linked Skinner's superstitious pigeons with the development of human technology. As told by this article, the Burke and Wills expedition in Australia encountered friendly aboriginals who shared with them a grain called nardoo which they ritually prepared. The preparation was convoluted, with many steps which seemed superfluous. After relations broke down, the party attempted to prepare and consume the nardoo as they had observed but quickly succumbed to illness and death. It turns out that nardoo is extremely toxic without being processed in a very specific way. To Burke and Wills this process looked like a religious ritual. Perhaps many of the steps in the preparation were pointless, but the superstition of the aboriginals in doing it exactly this way was vital because a small change in the process could lead to illness. We definitely still see this sort of superstition in Western cooking today, Adam Ragusea does a lot of fun mythbusting in this area.

dingusdew 4y ago
Similar to theories on why Judaism forbids eating shellfish and pork, potentially pointing to a history of death from spoiled shellfish and pork, thus leading to a religious doctrine to avoid them.