4 ms·

I can’t really empathize with the sense that not allowing driveway car washing makes life “much more irritating” and, even beside the water issue, the detergent

I can’t really empathize with the sense that not allowing driveway car washing makes life “much more irritating” and, even beside the water issue, the detergent and sludge just washing into the drains is a real concern. There’s a reason they don’t let the car wash do that.

lazide 4y ago
Looking at the overall scheme of things, the things you mention get lost in the noise. People wash their cars anyway, they just don’t do it when the HOA president is watching or when the cops are looking. Or in San Jose, they don’t give a crap anyway since there is a giant homeless encampment half a block away, and human feces floating into the sewers anyway. It’s like bag bans - inconvenience, more junk, more cost, and for little to no actual improvement, coupled with feel good ‘look how much we’re helping’ propaganda. Also irritating. Are these major impediments to life? No. Are they lame? Yes. Do they accomplish what they putatively are for? No.
- emodendroket 4y ago
  Why have laws at all, since someone might break any of them?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - lazide 4y ago
    Shades of gray of course. Murder? Of course it should be illegal. And society generally takes it seriously. Banning plastic bags - the cause of the month - or washing your car? Most of society is going to not give a rats ass, and it will undermine the rest of the system because of it. More laws don’t create less lawlessness. Laws which address, and give teeth to effective enforcement for, actual problems create less lawlessness.
    - emodendroket 4y ago
      So laws are only worth having if everyone already agrees that the things they prohibit are very bad and they can't really change anything about what behavior people engage in? I think we have a lot of counterexamples, from litter to drunk driving to accessibility to discrimination. In my experience, appeals to laws being unenforceable are often made by people who just oppose the laws in the first place.
      - lazide 4y ago
        Where are you getting 'they can't really change anything about what behavior people engage in?' from?
        emodendroket 4y ago
        "Most of society is going to not give a rats ass, and it will undermine the rest of the system because of it" suggests that nobody is going to stop doing something they don't personally think is wrong just because a law is passed banning it, doesn't it?
        lazide 4y ago
        Nope, not what I meant at all with that! No one enforces the laws i’m referring to widely, and your average American rolls their eyes at it. Law enforcement doesn’t try to enforce them either normally. Though they do occasionally get used to harass someone they don’t like. So society doesn’t care, and it just gives more ammo to harass the occasional person they don’t like for other reasons. When society cares, then the law is followed more (and enforced more), and it matters for the putative reason the law was created. For instance, murder? People will murder someone sometimes, obviously, regardless of the law. When that happens, investigations happen, and people go to jail (when it all lines up, anyway). But also, laws against murder do stop people from murdering folks they otherwise would! Because they know it will be taken seriously. Interestingly, this effect can be seen from things like Serial killers and the victims they choose, who are often people society doesn’t seem to take murders of seriously, including runaways, prostitutes, women of color or natives, etc. A law against murder is stopping more harm than it causes, by a pretty large margin, near as I can tell. Putting more effort and focus into ensuring it’s investigated more thoroughly seems like it would pay clear dividends in many ways. That is not clear for plastic bag bans. Near as I can tell, plastic bag bans are causing more harm - environmentally, even.

lazide 4y ago

Looking at the overall scheme of things, the things you mention get lost in the noise. People wash their cars anyway, they just don’t do it when the HOA president is watching or when the cops are looking. Or in San Jose, they don’t give a crap anyway since there is a giant homeless encampment half a block away, and human feces floating into the sewers anyway. It’s like bag bans - inconvenience, more junk, more cost, and for little to no actual improvement, coupled with feel good ‘look how much we’re helping’ propaganda. Also irritating. Are these major impediments to life? No. Are they lame? Yes. Do they accomplish what they putatively are for? No.

emodendroket 4y ago
Why have laws at all, since someone might break any of them?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lazide 4y ago
  Shades of gray of course. Murder? Of course it should be illegal. And society generally takes it seriously. Banning plastic bags - the cause of the month - or washing your car? Most of society is going to not give a rats ass, and it will undermine the rest of the system because of it. More laws don’t create less lawlessness. Laws which address, and give teeth to effective enforcement for, actual problems create less lawlessness.
  - emodendroket 4y ago
    So laws are only worth having if everyone already agrees that the things they prohibit are very bad and they can't really change anything about what behavior people engage in? I think we have a lot of counterexamples, from litter to drunk driving to accessibility to discrimination. In my experience, appeals to laws being unenforceable are often made by people who just oppose the laws in the first place.
    - lazide 4y ago
      Where are you getting 'they can't really change anything about what behavior people engage in?' from?
      - emodendroket 4y ago
        "Most of society is going to not give a rats ass, and it will undermine the rest of the system because of it" suggests that nobody is going to stop doing something they don't personally think is wrong just because a law is passed banning it, doesn't it?
        lazide 4y ago
        Nope, not what I meant at all with that! No one enforces the laws i’m referring to widely, and your average American rolls their eyes at it. Law enforcement doesn’t try to enforce them either normally. Though they do occasionally get used to harass someone they don’t like. So society doesn’t care, and it just gives more ammo to harass the occasional person they don’t like for other reasons. When society cares, then the law is followed more (and enforced more), and it matters for the putative reason the law was created. For instance, murder? People will murder someone sometimes, obviously, regardless of the law. When that happens, investigations happen, and people go to jail (when it all lines up, anyway). But also, laws against murder do stop people from murdering folks they otherwise would! Because they know it will be taken seriously. Interestingly, this effect can be seen from things like Serial killers and the victims they choose, who are often people society doesn’t seem to take murders of seriously, including runaways, prostitutes, women of color or natives, etc. A law against murder is stopping more harm than it causes, by a pretty large margin, near as I can tell. Putting more effort and focus into ensuring it’s investigated more thoroughly seems like it would pay clear dividends in many ways. That is not clear for plastic bag bans. Near as I can tell, plastic bag bans are causing more harm - environmentally, even.