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There's research behind this too. The book NurtureShock has a chapter on telling kids "you're smart" vs. "you worked hard." There was even some HN discussion o

There's research behind this too. The book NurtureShock has a chapter on telling kids "you're smart" vs. "you worked hard." There was even some HN discussion on it. Basically, when you attribute your kids accomplishments to their being smart, they kind of freeze up when they get a problem they can't handle. But when you attribute it to hard work, they work harder to figure it out. There are a series of fascinating experiments that bare this out. For people into parenting books, I highly recommend NurtureShock. It's about the only parenting book I've found based on actual scientific research, as opposed to being somebody's opinion.

DavidChouinard 15y ago
Do you have a link/paper ont his? Legitimately curious.
- fribblerz 15y ago
  here's the HN thread : http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3284169 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3284169
- martincmartin 15y ago
  Apparently, the chapter of the book also appeared in New York magazine, although I can't find the reference so I don't know which issue. You can always read some excerpts on Google Books or Amazon, it's chapter 1 of NurtureShock.
  - jonnycowboy 15y ago
    You can find the article here: http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/ http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/
- realitygrill 15y ago
  Goto source is Carol Dweck; read Mindset for the general ideas and pick up Self-Theories for a in-depth look.
- rgoddard 15y ago
  www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/oct07/vol65/num02/The-Perils-and-Promises-of-Praise.aspx Includes references for further reading if so desired.
- mikeinterviewst 15y ago
  Scientific American had a great article on this in my Pinboard: "The Secret of Raising Smart Kids: Don't Tell Them They Are" http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-to-raising-smart-kids&print=true http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-... EDIT: It looks like it's behind a semi-paywall. Here's a Googled PDF: http://www.ccsf.edu/Campuses/Downtown/scientific_american.pdf http://www.ccsf.edu/Campuses/Downtown/scientific_american.pd...
mohsen 15y ago
Donald Knuth experienced something similar. http://www.webofstories.com/play/17068?o=MS http://www.webofstories.com/play/17068?o=MS (it starts around 2:37)
- econner 15y ago
  This is exactly what came to mind for me. To see Don Knuth say that he was afraid of failing is downright shocking... I would have thought he would have spent very little time thinking about classes and would have already been in a world of his own at that point. One interesting happening I've noticed too is that with mathematical and computing knowledge specifically it seems that as people gain knowledge it becomes easier to add new knowledge. The curve seems exponential. It's easy to pick up Python if you're already familiar with C and C++. It's easy to understand a new comparison sorting algorithm if you know it can't be faster than O(n lg n) and can place it in perspective with merge and quicksort. This is why I still go on Stack Overflow and am floored by how few questions I can answer and how much more experienced guys know than me. But I have hope that learning will beget faster learning.
  - mohsen 15y ago
    I agree with you on everything you said. As for the SO, or anything in general (as far as learning is concerned), I guess the more you learn the more you realize how little you know...
sp332 15y ago
I kind of hated this. I did pretty well in school. But the result never seemed to match the amount of effort I put in. I would be told "you worked hard" for something I didn't work hard on, or "you should work harder" for something that took me weeks to finish.
- jreposa 15y ago
  When someone would tell me I had worked hard on something, I would get embarassed and shut down. I'm not sure exactly why... But I did react exactly like the NutureShock book mentions. I'm feeling pangs in my chest just thinking of all the times I froze with a fear of failure when presented with even the slightest challenge. Or even worse, when I would brush something off as beneath me, since I was so smart. I didn't need to try.
- neilparikh 15y ago
  I'm in high school right now and I agree with this a lot. It's not as much in high school, but in middle school, almost every assignment had an effort mark, and it always annoyed. I mean, how are they going to know how much effort I put in it? They could look at the quality of the final product, but a few times, I would screw up completely so I had to redo the whole thing and then what I handed in would not look as good. Obviously, there was some merit to the idea having an effort mark, as that would reward hard work, but it annoyed me personally.
  - sp332 15y ago
    It was kind of the opposite in college for me. I remember in one class, I got a B- on every single paper regardless of how much time I spent on it or how much planning I put into the paper. I got very discouraged and almost flunked out of two courses in my last semester. So I guess some amount of effort is required :)
    - neilparikh 15y ago
      Ya, effort is required for sure, but I think the papers should be marked according to categories that actually can be marked, such as grammar and spelling, factual correctness etc. There is still some subjectivity, but it's way more fair.
eridius 15y ago
This is hugely important. I don't remember where I ran across this idea (the "you're smart" vs "you worked hard") but it was a while ago and it explained a _lot_ about my life. Growing up I was always told "you're smart" instead of "you worked hard", and this left me vastly unprepared for situations where actual work is required (starting near the end of high school). By the time I was a sophomore in college I had already identified this problem, but it didn't stop me from flaking out most of my classes and eventually dropping out. Even today, I'm 26, with a great job working for an extremely influential tech company, and I'm still struggling with the motivational issues that started with "you're smart".
jacques_chester 15y ago
I learnt hard work the easy way. Through Olympic weightlifting. All through primary and secondary school, and through most of university, I have scraped by on brute intelligence and my efficient memory. Like a lot of HNers, I suspect. But that began to leave me behind. I failed algorithms. I jokingly said to my professor a year later "I'm not smart enough for algo". "You're plenty smart", he said. "You just didn't do any work". I took up Olympic-style weightlifting ("Oly" to friends) about 3 years ago. It taught me the most important lesson of my working and studying life: You cannot cram for a competition. No one training session makes for success on the platform. Success comes from months of work. A few hours, every day or two. Each session is hard, sure, but by itself does not seem like much. But the cumulative effect can be amazing. By my third year in computer science I was becoming more methodical about studying. My scores improved and my professors accepted me for honours. Thanks to the learned ability to stick to a project for months on end, I completed my degree last year with first class honours. I wish I'd known earlier that consistency, and not flashes of brilliance, is what would get people to think of me as truly capable.

DavidChouinard 15y ago

Do you have a link/paper ont his? Legitimately curious.

fribblerz 15y ago
here's the HN thread : http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3284169 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3284169
martincmartin 15y ago
Apparently, the chapter of the book also appeared in New York magazine, although I can't find the reference so I don't know which issue. You can always read some excerpts on Google Books or Amazon, it's chapter 1 of NurtureShock.
- jonnycowboy 15y ago
  You can find the article here: http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/ http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/
realitygrill 15y ago
Goto source is Carol Dweck; read Mindset for the general ideas and pick up Self-Theories for a in-depth look.
rgoddard 15y ago
www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/oct07/vol65/num02/The-Perils-and-Promises-of-Praise.aspx Includes references for further reading if so desired.
mikeinterviewst 15y ago
Scientific American had a great article on this in my Pinboard: "The Secret of Raising Smart Kids: Don't Tell Them They Are" http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-to-raising-smart-kids&print=true http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-... EDIT: It looks like it's behind a semi-paywall. Here's a Googled PDF: http://www.ccsf.edu/Campuses/Downtown/scientific_american.pdf http://www.ccsf.edu/Campuses/Downtown/scientific_american.pd...

mohsen 15y ago

Donald Knuth experienced something similar. http://www.webofstories.com/play/17068?o=MS http://www.webofstories.com/play/17068?o=MS (it starts around 2:37)

econner 15y ago
This is exactly what came to mind for me. To see Don Knuth say that he was afraid of failing is downright shocking... I would have thought he would have spent very little time thinking about classes and would have already been in a world of his own at that point. One interesting happening I've noticed too is that with mathematical and computing knowledge specifically it seems that as people gain knowledge it becomes easier to add new knowledge. The curve seems exponential. It's easy to pick up Python if you're already familiar with C and C++. It's easy to understand a new comparison sorting algorithm if you know it can't be faster than O(n lg n) and can place it in perspective with merge and quicksort. This is why I still go on Stack Overflow and am floored by how few questions I can answer and how much more experienced guys know than me. But I have hope that learning will beget faster learning.
- mohsen 15y ago
  I agree with you on everything you said. As for the SO, or anything in general (as far as learning is concerned), I guess the more you learn the more you realize how little you know...

sp332 15y ago

I kind of hated this. I did pretty well in school. But the result never seemed to match the amount of effort I put in. I would be told "you worked hard" for something I didn't work hard on, or "you should work harder" for something that took me weeks to finish.

jreposa 15y ago
When someone would tell me I had worked hard on something, I would get embarassed and shut down. I'm not sure exactly why... But I did react exactly like the NutureShock book mentions. I'm feeling pangs in my chest just thinking of all the times I froze with a fear of failure when presented with even the slightest challenge. Or even worse, when I would brush something off as beneath me, since I was so smart. I didn't need to try.
neilparikh 15y ago
I'm in high school right now and I agree with this a lot. It's not as much in high school, but in middle school, almost every assignment had an effort mark, and it always annoyed. I mean, how are they going to know how much effort I put in it? They could look at the quality of the final product, but a few times, I would screw up completely so I had to redo the whole thing and then what I handed in would not look as good. Obviously, there was some merit to the idea having an effort mark, as that would reward hard work, but it annoyed me personally.
- sp332 15y ago
  It was kind of the opposite in college for me. I remember in one class, I got a B- on every single paper regardless of how much time I spent on it or how much planning I put into the paper. I got very discouraged and almost flunked out of two courses in my last semester. So I guess some amount of effort is required :)
  - neilparikh 15y ago
    Ya, effort is required for sure, but I think the papers should be marked according to categories that actually can be marked, such as grammar and spelling, factual correctness etc. There is still some subjectivity, but it's way more fair.

eridius 15y ago

This is hugely important. I don't remember where I ran across this idea (the "you're smart" vs "you worked hard") but it was a while ago and it explained a _lot_ about my life. Growing up I was always told "you're smart" instead of "you worked hard", and this left me vastly unprepared for situations where actual work is required (starting near the end of high school). By the time I was a sophomore in college I had already identified this problem, but it didn't stop me from flaking out most of my classes and eventually dropping out. Even today, I'm 26, with a great job working for an extremely influential tech company, and I'm still struggling with the motivational issues that started with "you're smart".

jacques_chester 15y ago

I learnt hard work the easy way. Through Olympic weightlifting. All through primary and secondary school, and through most of university, I have scraped by on brute intelligence and my efficient memory. Like a lot of HNers, I suspect. But that began to leave me behind. I failed algorithms. I jokingly said to my professor a year later "I'm not smart enough for algo". "You're plenty smart", he said. "You just didn't do any work". I took up Olympic-style weightlifting ("Oly" to friends) about 3 years ago. It taught me the most important lesson of my working and studying life: You cannot cram for a competition. No one training session makes for success on the platform. Success comes from months of work. A few hours, every day or two. Each session is hard, sure, but by itself does not seem like much. But the cumulative effect can be amazing. By my third year in computer science I was becoming more methodical about studying. My scores improved and my professors accepted me for honours. Thanks to the learned ability to stick to a project for months on end, I completed my degree last year with first class honours. I wish I'd known earlier that consistency, and not flashes of brilliance, is what would get people to think of me as truly capable.