8 ms·

Quickly throwing up cheap mass housing without also organically growing the services and rest of the community is how you get food deserts and ghettos though. I

Quickly throwing up cheap mass housing without also organically growing the services and rest of the community is how you get food deserts and ghettos though. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, just pointing out where it's gone wrong in the past and why people may be hesitant to try again.

zozbot234 4y ago
"Food deserts and ghettos" are also the outcome of broader housing scarcity and lack of amenities. Where the only cheap areas around are those that have become cheap merely by virtue of being terrible to live in, and are since stuck in that vicious cycle.
jorvi 4y ago
That is how things happen in the US. In most North-Western European countries, city planning and zoning is taken very seriously.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  Not so, there are blighted areas even in places like London.
  - MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
    Don't the suburbs/banlieues of Paris have quite the reputation as well?
kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
Food deserts are the result of theft driving away low margin businesses that don't want to absorb the hit.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  This is a popular trope, but companies have already begun walking back their claims of rampant theft[0]. There are increased profits when building in more prosperous areas, so one might understand why companies choose to do so given limited resources. But lower profits in inner cities are not always about theft so much as a lack of cash. 0. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/walgreens-may-have-cried-too-much-last-year-about-theft-cfo-says-11673030443 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/walgreens-may-have-cried-t...
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    That isn't what the article says. It says Walgreens is walking back their anti-theft measures because it's costly and ineffective and the customers don't like them.
    - pwinnski 4y ago
      It also says that they sounded the alarm when shrink was at 3.5%, but they're back down to the more-normal 2.5% now. That's a decline that undercuts the very-popular trope that open theft is rampant or out of control in certain cites.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        Their anti-theft measures brought it to 2.5%. They also closed several stores due to unsustainable theft. The 2.5% was overall, not each store.
      - UncleEntity 4y ago
        They also say that shoplifting isn’t as bad as industrialized (organized?) theft. And casual shoplifting becomes a problem when everything, like ice cream, is behind lock and key (also from the referenced article).
  - prottog 4y ago
    The article doesn't support your claim. What it supports is the idea that for Walgreens as a whole, shrinkage isn't a make-or-break issue. It says nothing about whether Walgreens will choose to place or keep a store at a high-theft location or whether a mom-and-pop store can survive in the same. The grocery business is famous for having very thin margins, so anything that cuts in will necessarily cause fewer options for the people of that area. Academic studies have generally shown that this is in fact not a trope but fact.
- hellotomyrars 4y ago
  Food deserts are not the result of theft. Food deserts exist outside of SF or other cities that are accused of being so soft on crime and all crime is legal. Food deserts are incredibly common in rural areas, especially as a result of their non-density. But hell, when I lived in Jacksonville( which is a consolidated city-county) I was 10+ miles from any grocery store. North side has developed a lot since I left and that is no longer true but in many rural areas the only places opening up are dollar generals which are taking advantage of the economics of whatever local grocery store is charging and offering an alternative to driving 30+ miles to the nearest Walmart. A sad state of affairs. I live in Pacific County WA and it is an economically depressed area with an outsized cost of living. Groceries are absurdly expensive relative to the average income in the area and you could probably get the same groceries for half th price by driving to where the closest Walmart is( which is 30 or so miles from where I live.
luckylion 4y ago
It doesn't have to be "plan & build it within 12 months, and don't worry about anything but apartment buildings". It's not a new problem, it's been a constant topic (here, in Germany) for at least 15 years, with every year ending with "we have 2000 new apartments, but we need 20000 a year to keep up with demand". And city planners put their hands into their pockets and say "well, you can't rush these things..." What will come first: commercial cold fusion energy or a return to actually building housing in Western cities?
- glass3 4y ago
  Neither. Why would significant further growth happen in Western (European) cities if cheap solar energy and space is available in North Africa?
  - luckylion 4y ago
    A very practical reason: most of that available space is a desert, and people tend to prefer not living in a desert. And also because European nations are much more developed, have much stronger economies, allow much more freedom etc etc. There's a reason why migration is a one-way-street.
    - glass3 4y ago
      People have been living around Cairo for millions of years. There are reasons why migration is a one-way street but they can change. There are millions of under-utilized young adults with access to the internet. They will find a way to prosper.
      - luckylion 4y ago
        Egypt's natural environment cannot really support strong further growth. If they invest heavily into solar energy and desalination, I'm sure they can create more arable land, but it'll still come at very high capital expenditure compared to other locations. What's your prediction here, Egypt, Morocco and Algeria overtaking Germany, France and Italy with regards to economy, science etc (broadly "development") and drawing migration from Europe? In what time frame, by 2050?
AussieWog93 4y ago
>Quickly throwing up cheap mass housing without also organically growing the services and rest of the community is how you get food deserts and ghettos though. Not sure if this is the case overseas, but here in Melbourne (AU), it's really common for new developments in built-up areas to consist of a shopping centre with supermarket on the bottom floor, and a large amount of (nice) apartments on top. Seems like a good way to solve the density problem without also isolating people from shops and services.
maeil 4y ago
Here in Korea quick building of mass housing is incredibly common yet there's not a single food desert or ghetto to be found. "Quick" and "cheap" are relative terms but here apartment blocks of 1k+ residencies are built in ~4 years. While most aren't "cheap" as they're built for families, those for 1 or 2-person households are very cheap by e.g. Western-European capital standards.

zozbot234 4y ago

"Food deserts and ghettos" are also the outcome of broader housing scarcity and lack of amenities. Where the only cheap areas around are those that have become cheap merely by virtue of being terrible to live in, and are since stuck in that vicious cycle.

jorvi 4y ago

That is how things happen in the US. In most North-Western European countries, city planning and zoning is taken very seriously.

zozbot234 4y ago
Not so, there are blighted areas even in places like London.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
  Don't the suburbs/banlieues of Paris have quite the reputation as well?

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago

Food deserts are the result of theft driving away low margin businesses that don't want to absorb the hit.

pwinnski 4y ago
This is a popular trope, but companies have already begun walking back their claims of rampant theft[0]. There are increased profits when building in more prosperous areas, so one might understand why companies choose to do so given limited resources. But lower profits in inner cities are not always about theft so much as a lack of cash. 0. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/walgreens-may-have-cried-too-much-last-year-about-theft-cfo-says-11673030443 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/walgreens-may-have-cried-t...
- WalterBright 4y ago
  That isn't what the article says. It says Walgreens is walking back their anti-theft measures because it's costly and ineffective and the customers don't like them.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    It also says that they sounded the alarm when shrink was at 3.5%, but they're back down to the more-normal 2.5% now. That's a decline that undercuts the very-popular trope that open theft is rampant or out of control in certain cites.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      Their anti-theft measures brought it to 2.5%. They also closed several stores due to unsustainable theft. The 2.5% was overall, not each store.
    - UncleEntity 4y ago
      They also say that shoplifting isn’t as bad as industrialized (organized?) theft. And casual shoplifting becomes a problem when everything, like ice cream, is behind lock and key (also from the referenced article).
- prottog 4y ago
  The article doesn't support your claim. What it supports is the idea that for Walgreens as a whole, shrinkage isn't a make-or-break issue. It says nothing about whether Walgreens will choose to place or keep a store at a high-theft location or whether a mom-and-pop store can survive in the same. The grocery business is famous for having very thin margins, so anything that cuts in will necessarily cause fewer options for the people of that area. Academic studies have generally shown that this is in fact not a trope but fact.
hellotomyrars 4y ago
Food deserts are not the result of theft. Food deserts exist outside of SF or other cities that are accused of being so soft on crime and all crime is legal. Food deserts are incredibly common in rural areas, especially as a result of their non-density. But hell, when I lived in Jacksonville( which is a consolidated city-county) I was 10+ miles from any grocery store. North side has developed a lot since I left and that is no longer true but in many rural areas the only places opening up are dollar generals which are taking advantage of the economics of whatever local grocery store is charging and offering an alternative to driving 30+ miles to the nearest Walmart. A sad state of affairs. I live in Pacific County WA and it is an economically depressed area with an outsized cost of living. Groceries are absurdly expensive relative to the average income in the area and you could probably get the same groceries for half th price by driving to where the closest Walmart is( which is 30 or so miles from where I live.

luckylion 4y ago

It doesn't have to be "plan & build it within 12 months, and don't worry about anything but apartment buildings". It's not a new problem, it's been a constant topic (here, in Germany) for at least 15 years, with every year ending with "we have 2000 new apartments, but we need 20000 a year to keep up with demand". And city planners put their hands into their pockets and say "well, you can't rush these things..." What will come first: commercial cold fusion energy or a return to actually building housing in Western cities?

glass3 4y ago
Neither. Why would significant further growth happen in Western (European) cities if cheap solar energy and space is available in North Africa?
- luckylion 4y ago
  A very practical reason: most of that available space is a desert, and people tend to prefer not living in a desert. And also because European nations are much more developed, have much stronger economies, allow much more freedom etc etc. There's a reason why migration is a one-way-street.
  - glass3 4y ago
    People have been living around Cairo for millions of years. There are reasons why migration is a one-way street but they can change. There are millions of under-utilized young adults with access to the internet. They will find a way to prosper.
    - luckylion 4y ago
      Egypt's natural environment cannot really support strong further growth. If they invest heavily into solar energy and desalination, I'm sure they can create more arable land, but it'll still come at very high capital expenditure compared to other locations. What's your prediction here, Egypt, Morocco and Algeria overtaking Germany, France and Italy with regards to economy, science etc (broadly "development") and drawing migration from Europe? In what time frame, by 2050?

AussieWog93 4y ago

>Quickly throwing up cheap mass housing without also organically growing the services and rest of the community is how you get food deserts and ghettos though. Not sure if this is the case overseas, but here in Melbourne (AU), it's really common for new developments in built-up areas to consist of a shopping centre with supermarket on the bottom floor, and a large amount of (nice) apartments on top. Seems like a good way to solve the density problem without also isolating people from shops and services.

maeil 4y ago

Here in Korea quick building of mass housing is incredibly common yet there's not a single food desert or ghetto to be found. "Quick" and "cheap" are relative terms but here apartment blocks of 1k+ residencies are built in ~4 years. While most aren't "cheap" as they're built for families, those for 1 or 2-person households are very cheap by e.g. Western-European capital standards.