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Then we should expect cetaceans to have developed long verbal/oral lineages, especially as their medium is much better for transmitting sound. We see dialects,

by svnt 4y ago

Then we should expect cetaceans to have developed long verbal/oral lineages, especially as their medium is much better for transmitting sound. We see dialects, to an extent, in orcas, but we do not see the human behaviors we might expect. The problem, I think, is in the pure consideration of it as intelligence. This is a limited view.

kridsdale1 4y ago
You’re implying something is only showing intelligence if it shows complexity (long linguistic demonstrations here) Isn’t it more intelligence to convey all the information that you need to with the highest efficiency? We rate a poet who can convey tremendous meaning in few lines as superior to someone who is long winded and their writing is full of bullshit and tropes conveying nothing but using many words.
- svnt 4y ago
  I’m suggesting that increasing complexity and nuance present in a substrate such as language is a prerequisite for high intelligence because high intelligence in individuals is a feature of groups, not individuals. One person alone is without language and without advanced tools, no matter how big their brains. See feral children. It is possible that cetaceans pushed long ago pushed past complex verbosity into communication via wisdom and are all enlightened beings. Maybe they communicate electrically. Maybe they are in a local maximum of telepathic connection. I hope so.
bmitc 4y ago
> Then we should expect cetaceans to have developed long verbal/oral lineages Why? But nonetheless, they have. They pass on locations, routes, hunting techniques, etc. vocally and behaviorally down through generations. You and some of the other comments bring up a lot of things that don’t really have much to do with intelligence. They really only have anything to do with a human-centric view of intelligence.
- svnt 4y ago
  If you cannot build and communicate abstract concepts collectively your ability to select evolutionarily for increased capacity for abstract concepts seems to me to be very limited. I am all for different forms of intelligence, but at least attempt to define it and how it comes about.

by svnt 4y ago

kridsdale1 4y ago

You’re implying something is only showing intelligence if it shows complexity (long linguistic demonstrations here) Isn’t it more intelligence to convey all the information that you need to with the highest efficiency? We rate a poet who can convey tremendous meaning in few lines as superior to someone who is long winded and their writing is full of bullshit and tropes conveying nothing but using many words.

svnt 4y ago
I’m suggesting that increasing complexity and nuance present in a substrate such as language is a prerequisite for high intelligence because high intelligence in individuals is a feature of groups, not individuals. One person alone is without language and without advanced tools, no matter how big their brains. See feral children. It is possible that cetaceans pushed long ago pushed past complex verbosity into communication via wisdom and are all enlightened beings. Maybe they communicate electrically. Maybe they are in a local maximum of telepathic connection. I hope so.

bmitc 4y ago

> Then we should expect cetaceans to have developed long verbal/oral lineages Why? But nonetheless, they have. They pass on locations, routes, hunting techniques, etc. vocally and behaviorally down through generations. You and some of the other comments bring up a lot of things that don’t really have much to do with intelligence. They really only have anything to do with a human-centric view of intelligence.

svnt 4y ago
If you cannot build and communicate abstract concepts collectively your ability to select evolutionarily for increased capacity for abstract concepts seems to me to be very limited. I am all for different forms of intelligence, but at least attempt to define it and how it comes about.