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>This also helps explain for example why feudalism was so prevalent in Europe during the Middle Ages. Without well-maintained Roman roads, the time needed to go

by imbnwa 4y ago

>This also helps explain for example why feudalism was so prevalent in Europe during the Middle Ages. Without well-maintained Roman roads, the time needed to go from one place to another extended, which made it that much harder to control big empires. Small, local warlords emerged. They were the ones with enough money to afford a horse and armor This point is another reminder for me that Game of Thrones' Westeros, the Seven Kingdoms, should've collapsed the minute all the dragons were lost in the Dance of Dragons, particularly the North, where it takes months to get to Winterfell from King's Landing. This writer[0] also noted how impossible Westeros as a united entity should be along with other issues with GRRM's world design. Nevermind that the size of Westeros should have a significant impact on its anthropology. This is a needlessly nerdy analysis, and most are aware of GRRM's well-known disclaimer about his faults, but no one even comments on anyone having an accent in Westeros, except for that of the Dornish (which is kinda sketch IMO). * The relative isolation of the North and the Iron Islands would've seen them continue to speak and evolve the First Men's language, though with far more Andalic influence than the language spoken north of the Wall. * Dorne would speak a spectrum that goes from the Andalic of the Marches to the Andalic/Rhoynish patois most people would speak in Sunspear * The Sea Lords, much like the Channel Islands IRL, would've continued to speak a dialect of High Valyrian that would've had a strong Andalic influence and the Targaryens would've spoken this dialect. Its a bit strange that the Targaryens basically just stopped speaking Valyrian though where IRL it took the Normans, also a dominant political minority, almost 400 years to start speaking English conversationally. The royal court and the high lords would all have learned to speak it. * The Riverlands' dialect would be most related to the Stormlands' dialect since the Storm King ruled there for 300 years. * The Vale, also relatively isolated since its accessible over land through a scant few mountain passes, like Portugal and Spain IRL where Portuguese has more in common with vulgar Latin, would speak the 'purest' dialect of Andalic that has more in common with the Andalic that was spoken in Essos. [0]https://medium.com/migration-issues/westeros-is-poorly-designed-3b01cf5cdcaf https://medium.com/migration-issues/westeros-is-poorly-desig...

nostrademons 4y ago
Also the stability of the Kingdoms of Westeros is ridiculous given their ages. Supposedly they were divided into the Kingdoms of the North/Vale/Iron Islands/Reach/Rock/Stormlands/Dorne in the Age of Heroes - 10,000 years before the Targaryen conquest. 10,000 years is twice as long as all of recorded human history. In that time on earth, dozens of empires have risen and fallen. The center of civilization moved from the Middle East to Egypt to Greece to Rome to Byzantium & Arabia to western Europe to Britain to North America. Independent civilizations with equal claims to greatness sprung up elsewhere on the globe. Civilizations got conquered, technology advanced, genocides and plagues and famines happened, languages changed, and dynasties typically lasted a couple hundred years, if that. Meanwhile, over in Westeros, the same 7 kingdoms have been ruled over the same geographic extent by the same 7 families at roughly the same level of technological development for 10,000 years. It took outsiders with dragons to conquer them. No explanation is given over how you could maintain what appear to be feudal structures over a 3000+ mile continent with bronze age technology.
- imbnwa 4y ago
  Ha, yes, the same series where we get like two pages dedicated to detailing every notable knight and lord that either died or lost their titles owing to the Battle of the Blackwater is also the series where political powers and contours basically never change.
- akkartik 4y ago
  I disagree only with the use of the term "bronze age". The Titan of Braavos bestrides two mountains across a sea channel and wears a skirt of bronze. They have magic, and that changes the landscape utterly of what's easy and difficult. The two worlds are incommensurable.
Hithredin 4y ago
This medieval example sounds like an easy shortcut though. At part of Europe, roads were always maintened. Maybe with more local that country-wide focus sometimes. The feudalism may not caused by road system efficiency. Good roads on a empire splitted by succession are still no match to fast manoeuvrable drakkar raiders. Local power and defence is needed... leading to another important parameter. Size of empires is proportional to time of travel and relative defensive strength of the remote area.
- imbnwa 4y ago
  > Good roads on a empire splitted by succession are still no match to fast manoeuvrable drakkar raiders. That's the issue though, dragons had gone extinct in Westeros 150 years before the series begins its story
int_19h 4y ago
You might find this series of posts interesting. https://acoup.blog/2019/05/28/new-acquisitions-not-how-it-was-game-of-thrones-and-the-middle-ages-part-i/ https://acoup.blog/2019/05/28/new-acquisitions-not-how-it-wa... The third part in particular talks about geography and logistics of governance in Westeros.
- imbnwa 4y ago
  Series like this remind me that the best approach to writing fantasy is to deny the urge to explain everything and answer all questions. Which is ironic, because GRRM is on-record saying this like this: > Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?” And even more, he's writing a series that's exclusively POV but he nonetheless spills pages of ink on world-building exposition no character in the world would discuss with themselves.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    GoT is a recurring topic on that blog, and in another series [1] - that one on why Dothraki are not an accurate representation of any real-world nomadic culture (despite GRRM's explicit claims that it is a fusion of such) - the author made a reference to that claim: «The answer to the first is something that we’ve rehearsed a number of times, but bears restating: for most of its readers (and the watchers of A Game of Thrones), A Song of Ice and Fire will be their primary exposure to the idea of the Middle Ages. This is particularly true because of the reputation that the series has for being ‘how it really was,’ a reputation that George R.R. Martin has consciously cultivated (as with his classic complaint of ‘what was Aragorn’s tax policy’ – there is a rich irony that, had Martin understood rulership in the Middle Ages better, he would have understood why Aragorn’s tax policy was less important). Martin has been quite open that he “draw[s] inspiration from history” and that fact has long been a selling point of the series over more obviously fantastical kinds of medieval-themed high fantasy as well as a response to some of the series’ more controversial moments.» [1] https://acoup.blog/2020/12/04/collections-that-dothraki-horde-part-i-barbarian-couture/ https://acoup.blog/2020/12/04/collections-that-dothraki-hord...

by imbnwa 4y ago

nostrademons 4y ago

Also the stability of the Kingdoms of Westeros is ridiculous given their ages. Supposedly they were divided into the Kingdoms of the North/Vale/Iron Islands/Reach/Rock/Stormlands/Dorne in the Age of Heroes - 10,000 years before the Targaryen conquest. 10,000 years is twice as long as all of recorded human history. In that time on earth, dozens of empires have risen and fallen. The center of civilization moved from the Middle East to Egypt to Greece to Rome to Byzantium & Arabia to western Europe to Britain to North America. Independent civilizations with equal claims to greatness sprung up elsewhere on the globe. Civilizations got conquered, technology advanced, genocides and plagues and famines happened, languages changed, and dynasties typically lasted a couple hundred years, if that. Meanwhile, over in Westeros, the same 7 kingdoms have been ruled over the same geographic extent by the same 7 families at roughly the same level of technological development for 10,000 years. It took outsiders with dragons to conquer them. No explanation is given over how you could maintain what appear to be feudal structures over a 3000+ mile continent with bronze age technology.

imbnwa 4y ago
Ha, yes, the same series where we get like two pages dedicated to detailing every notable knight and lord that either died or lost their titles owing to the Battle of the Blackwater is also the series where political powers and contours basically never change.
akkartik 4y ago
I disagree only with the use of the term "bronze age". The Titan of Braavos bestrides two mountains across a sea channel and wears a skirt of bronze. They have magic, and that changes the landscape utterly of what's easy and difficult. The two worlds are incommensurable.

Hithredin 4y ago

This medieval example sounds like an easy shortcut though. At part of Europe, roads were always maintened. Maybe with more local that country-wide focus sometimes. The feudalism may not caused by road system efficiency. Good roads on a empire splitted by succession are still no match to fast manoeuvrable drakkar raiders. Local power and defence is needed... leading to another important parameter. Size of empires is proportional to time of travel and relative defensive strength of the remote area.

imbnwa 4y ago
> Good roads on a empire splitted by succession are still no match to fast manoeuvrable drakkar raiders. That's the issue though, dragons had gone extinct in Westeros 150 years before the series begins its story

int_19h 4y ago

You might find this series of posts interesting. https://acoup.blog/2019/05/28/new-acquisitions-not-how-it-was-game-of-thrones-and-the-middle-ages-part-i/ https://acoup.blog/2019/05/28/new-acquisitions-not-how-it-wa... The third part in particular talks about geography and logistics of governance in Westeros.

imbnwa 4y ago
Series like this remind me that the best approach to writing fantasy is to deny the urge to explain everything and answer all questions. Which is ironic, because GRRM is on-record saying this like this: > Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?” And even more, he's writing a series that's exclusively POV but he nonetheless spills pages of ink on world-building exposition no character in the world would discuss with themselves.
- int_19h 4y ago
  GoT is a recurring topic on that blog, and in another series [1] - that one on why Dothraki are not an accurate representation of any real-world nomadic culture (despite GRRM's explicit claims that it is a fusion of such) - the author made a reference to that claim: «The answer to the first is something that we’ve rehearsed a number of times, but bears restating: for most of its readers (and the watchers of A Game of Thrones), A Song of Ice and Fire will be their primary exposure to the idea of the Middle Ages. This is particularly true because of the reputation that the series has for being ‘how it really was,’ a reputation that George R.R. Martin has consciously cultivated (as with his classic complaint of ‘what was Aragorn’s tax policy’ – there is a rich irony that, had Martin understood rulership in the Middle Ages better, he would have understood why Aragorn’s tax policy was less important). Martin has been quite open that he “draw[s] inspiration from history” and that fact has long been a selling point of the series over more obviously fantastical kinds of medieval-themed high fantasy as well as a response to some of the series’ more controversial moments.» [1] https://acoup.blog/2020/12/04/collections-that-dothraki-horde-part-i-barbarian-couture/ https://acoup.blog/2020/12/04/collections-that-dothraki-hord...