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Portugal conquered Goa in 1510 -- that's more than a month of travel. The Netherlands conquering Java in 1619? A lot more than a month. And these conquests la

Portugal conquered Goa in 1510 -- that's more than a month of travel. The Netherlands conquering Java in 1619? A lot more than a month. And these conquests lasted for centuries.

alephnerd 4y ago
To be fair, Dutch control of Java was more on paper than it was in reality. Most governance was devolved to local Rajahs who paid tribute to the VOC. Actual guns on the ground control across Java and most of what became Indonesia didn't really happen until the late 19th century Also, Goa's existence was because it was so marginal. The Mughals, Marathas, and various regional kingdoms didn't care enough about the Portuguese, and also it was de facto treated as a factory (a free trade zone) - just like Surat was for the English
- FlyingSnake 4y ago
  > The Mughals, Marathas, and various regional kingdoms didn't care enough about the Portuguese Sorry to be that guy, but Marathas cared deeply about Goa and they constantly waged wars against them and liberated most of the territory by 1739. Except tiny enclaves like Daman, Diu and Velha Goa most of the Provincia do Norte including the crown jewel of Baçaim (Vasai) was lost. Velha Goa, Anjidiva etc were saved by a stroke of luck due to the arrival of fresh Portuguese Armada with a new Viceroy. The current boundaries of Goa were only extended later when the Rajas agreed to merge with Portuguese during Maratha civil war period on 1790s, however the Hindu elites retained most of the autonomy like the Visconde of Pernem.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
tarentel 4y ago
I'm not sure capturing and holding an island would constitute an empire.
- beebmam 4y ago
  Just want to be clear here: Are you claiming that Portugal and the Netherlands were not empires during those time periods? Here's the definition of empire used by Wikipedia: 'An empire is a "political unit" made up of several territories and peoples, "usually created by conquest, and divided between a dominant center and subordinate peripheries'
- dalbasal 4y ago
  what does and how do you measure its size, in a sense pertinent to this thread?
- TheRealPomax 4y ago
  History is though. That's empire. But hey, France took a whole bunch of islands that to this day still speak french and are literally "more France, outside of Europe", not "colonies".
- alephnerd 4y ago
  Java is a pretty big island just saying.
- hammock 4y ago
  Britain? Sardinia? Java is the world's most populous island, by the way, and was roughly as populated as England in the 1600's
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Fine. How about New Spain? And the Philippines?
Quarrelsome 4y ago
sure but I imagine the argument here is that the grip on power of provinces so far away was considerably weak and likely to an extent devolved to the local agents of the crown. And likely as long as the ships with goods sailed limited questions were asked and limited checks occurred. I imagine that those who worked on the colonial extents of the Empire were given the largest freedoms to be monstrous as long as it benefitted the crown. I would even argue that the cultural descendants of these agents are the same forces that encourage ideas such as Brexit; hoping to return to times of significantly less oversight from the home nation. As an example of this internal discord between territories of European empires and home states I think the abolition of slavery in the 19th century was a scenario where the electorate didn't align with these colonial interests to create an internal discord. Agents then shifted to an evil interpretation of contract law to replace slaves with indentured servants. I appreciate that this might not seem immediately irrelevant but I hope it might show how a discord between the competing interests of the society at "home" and the society "abroad" might slowly result in the "transport time" fractures this article discusses as the interests of the two populations diverge.
rsynnott 4y ago
> The Netherlands conquering Java in 1619? A lot more than a month. For practical purposes this was more the VOC than the Netherlands. Similar situation with British India until they killed off the British East India Company; before that, well, you could call it an empire, but it was really more a separate country ruled by a _company_. Goa is probably a better counterexample, granted.
- FlyingSnake 4y ago
  > Goa is probably a better counterexample, granted. Velha Goa, the territory that was with Portuguese was really tiny and just contained Salsette, Tiswadi and Bardez concelhos. It is not a big feat to hold on to these coastal holdings given the total domination of Armadas.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Portugal conquered Goa in 1510 -- that's more than a month of travel. The Netherlands conquering Java in 1619? A lot more than a month. And these conquests lasted for centuries.

alephnerd 4y ago

To be fair, Dutch control of Java was more on paper than it was in reality. Most governance was devolved to local Rajahs who paid tribute to the VOC. Actual guns on the ground control across Java and most of what became Indonesia didn't really happen until the late 19th century Also, Goa's existence was because it was so marginal. The Mughals, Marathas, and various regional kingdoms didn't care enough about the Portuguese, and also it was de facto treated as a factory (a free trade zone) - just like Surat was for the English

FlyingSnake 4y ago
> The Mughals, Marathas, and various regional kingdoms didn't care enough about the Portuguese Sorry to be that guy, but Marathas cared deeply about Goa and they constantly waged wars against them and liberated most of the territory by 1739. Except tiny enclaves like Daman, Diu and Velha Goa most of the Provincia do Norte including the crown jewel of Baçaim (Vasai) was lost. Velha Goa, Anjidiva etc were saved by a stroke of luck due to the arrival of fresh Portuguese Armada with a new Viceroy. The current boundaries of Goa were only extended later when the Rajas agreed to merge with Portuguese during Maratha civil war period on 1790s, however the Hindu elites retained most of the autonomy like the Visconde of Pernem.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

tarentel 4y ago

I'm not sure capturing and holding an island would constitute an empire.

beebmam 4y ago
Just want to be clear here: Are you claiming that Portugal and the Netherlands were not empires during those time periods? Here's the definition of empire used by Wikipedia: 'An empire is a "political unit" made up of several territories and peoples, "usually created by conquest, and divided between a dominant center and subordinate peripheries'
dalbasal 4y ago
what does and how do you measure its size, in a sense pertinent to this thread?
TheRealPomax 4y ago
History is though. That's empire. But hey, France took a whole bunch of islands that to this day still speak french and are literally "more France, outside of Europe", not "colonies".
alephnerd 4y ago
Java is a pretty big island just saying.
hammock 4y ago
Britain? Sardinia? Java is the world's most populous island, by the way, and was roughly as populated as England in the 1600's
AnimalMuppet 4y ago
Fine. How about New Spain? And the Philippines?

Quarrelsome 4y ago

sure but I imagine the argument here is that the grip on power of provinces so far away was considerably weak and likely to an extent devolved to the local agents of the crown. And likely as long as the ships with goods sailed limited questions were asked and limited checks occurred. I imagine that those who worked on the colonial extents of the Empire were given the largest freedoms to be monstrous as long as it benefitted the crown. I would even argue that the cultural descendants of these agents are the same forces that encourage ideas such as Brexit; hoping to return to times of significantly less oversight from the home nation. As an example of this internal discord between territories of European empires and home states I think the abolition of slavery in the 19th century was a scenario where the electorate didn't align with these colonial interests to create an internal discord. Agents then shifted to an evil interpretation of contract law to replace slaves with indentured servants. I appreciate that this might not seem immediately irrelevant but I hope it might show how a discord between the competing interests of the society at "home" and the society "abroad" might slowly result in the "transport time" fractures this article discusses as the interests of the two populations diverge.

rsynnott 4y ago

> The Netherlands conquering Java in 1619? A lot more than a month. For practical purposes this was more the VOC than the Netherlands. Similar situation with British India until they killed off the British East India Company; before that, well, you could call it an empire, but it was really more a separate country ruled by a _company_. Goa is probably a better counterexample, granted.

FlyingSnake 4y ago
> Goa is probably a better counterexample, granted. Velha Goa, the territory that was with Portuguese was really tiny and just contained Salsette, Tiswadi and Bardez concelhos. It is not a big feat to hold on to these coastal holdings given the total domination of Armadas.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]