12 ms·

The Tyranny of Nicespeak (2001)

102 points by robtherobber 4y ago

nullish_signal 4y ago
Great read, until the conclusion that Irony and Sarcasm are better weapons against Nicespeak than George Orwell's plain English is. Getting people to speak in vitriolic Opposites is no better than making them speak empty Compliments...
- watwut 4y ago
  I agree. Both irony and sarcasm are purely emotion based "arguments" and often just socially acceptable lies. Ok, so now you made some service worker feel bad for no reason. They are kind of paid for that, but still. And with that, I find the language author complains about better. If it achieves nothing I just ignore that.
- z3c0 4y ago
  I agree. The correction to "fake sincerity" isn't "ironic sincerity" - it's just regularly sincerity and old-fashioned earnestness. The article really dates itself with that assertion, because this was written right before the internet saturated every exchange with holier-than-thou sarcasm and multiple layers of irony. Now that we've lived through phenomena like the Wendy's Twitter account and cutesy 404 pages, this just seems terribly off-base.
  - sanderjd 4y ago
    Earnestness is so underrated.
- readthenotes1 4y ago
  You put that better than anyone else could have! ;)
- warmcompress 4y ago
  "We should try", "may be ... effective"; propositions are not hard conclusions. The biggest whiff for me in this essay is the idea that people aren't acutely aware of the fakeness. It would be like her acknowledging no irony in holding the Rupert Murdoch Professorship in Language and Communication.
  - johnea 4y ago
    Irony indeed. This pretty much provides the final proof of the corporate takeover of academia. If you're planning on being faculty in modern higher education, you very well better have some rich person's name in your title! Your alternative? You can always be an underpaid, un-insured, temporary adjunct! This 20 year old article certainly calls out the complete insincerity of the modern corporation's interface to it's customers. Especially when those customers are the retail masses. The really scariest part to me, is that many modern consumers seem to think this is all OK. "As long as the bot keeps kissing my ass I feel so taken care of" <-- This is the ultimate irony...
- drewcoo 4y ago
  > Getting people to speak in vitriolic Opposites is no better than making them speak empty Compliments... Whereas policing their emotions to make sure they feel the right thing when they make words . . . ew!
- omginternets 4y ago
  I don’t think sarcasm has to be vitriolic. In response to the example of a store announcement that says “in order to better serve you, we will be closed this afternoon”, one might respond with “I feel better-served already!” There’s hardly any vitriol, and the absurdity of the situation is promptly exposed.
dstroot 4y ago
> in a world where a notice can announce in all seriousness: "In order to better serve you, we are closed this afternoon." This is so spot-on. I am not sure this qualifies as "nicespeak" but if you pay attention you will hear this type of messaging everywhere. As we hear it we seem to just nod along and miss the fundamental irony of it.
- floren 4y ago
  "Please listen closely, as our menu options have changed. Did you know you can check your account balance, order checks, apply for a loan, or get a new debit card online? Visit w w w dot your bank name dot com forward slash banking for more information." ---> Please hang up before we actually have to make somebody pick up the phone "Due to the ongoing pandemic, for the safety of guests and staff we will not make up your room unless requested" ---> Thank god, we can cut our cleaning staff "Due to the ongoing drought conditions, water will only be served for customers who request it" ---> We wash half as many glasses this way COVID in general was a great excuse for a lot of companies to do something they've wanted to do for years (reduce business hours, cancel contracts, cut staff, reduce stock on hand, etc.) while acting like they're doing the world a favor.
  - booleandilemma 4y ago
    I love these. Another one I've seen recently is large Manhattan office buildings asking people to use revolving doors "to help save the environment". (i.e. help us save on electricity costs for heating and A/C)
  - function_seven 4y ago
    I saw this on the doors of my local shopping mall: MALL HOURS ========== For your convenience, The Galleria's operating hours are available online Followed by a huge QR code. Um, no. It's really inconvenient to have to grab a phone, scan a code, wait for the slow site to load, give apologies to others who want to walk in the door, etc. Oh, and let's say I get there before they open. Before I could just drive by and see the hours on the door. Now I have to stop, get out, scan the code, ... It's a small gripe for sure, but those are my favorite types.
ARandomerDude 4y ago
> as a friend of mine observed when asked to speak at a conference on "pursuing excellence in facilities management": "Who the hell would pursue second-rateness?" Most people, actually – though few are so bold as to announce it. That said, I agree with the point: although individuals may not pursue greatness, public institutions always should.
- mananaysiempre 4y ago
  “So how do you hire more B players?”[1] [1] https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=How_to_Hire_Insanely_Great_Employees.txt https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&stor...
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    > "A players hire A players," he said. "B players hire C players. Do you get it?" > Apparently not. Somebody in the back of the room raised his hand and asked, "so how do you hire more B players?" I think that guy did get it, but he worded it wrong, he meant to say, "so, who hired those B players?"
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      Right. He's spotted that the "rule" may have a little truth to it, but is also kinda just bullshit.
    - Nasrudith 4y ago
      Better B players who are insecure enough to specifically hire worse than themselves, but still B-players. If going by lower as better it would technically be B subscript N players hire B subscript N+1 players. But that is unwieldy and worryingly niche of a reference for a society which relies so much upon mathematics.
- jasmer 4y ago
  Public institutions need to pursue competence. If they could effectively do the things they are supposed to, we'd be mostly pretty good.
watwut 4y ago
Learning accent, idioms and cultural references were always parts of learning a language or judging how you learned that. Even years ago and in normal language class lessons. Watching entertainment or reading books were always part of that. And my friends going for American universities 20 years ago were memorizing cultural references idioms etc along with unusual words and what not. Cause it was a on the test.
johnea 4y ago
Very well timed post! The author really should produce an update for the new millennium. I was just ranting about this yesterday, after having to endure a chat session w/ a "customer care associate". The blatantly patronizing platitudes are really rudeness with flowers, and highlight the corporations use of exploited offshore call center workers as a human shield against the frustration of their customers. I'd also be curious to know about the tech of delivering "We're so sorry for your inconvenience, thank you for your patience..." messages automatically after certain periods of quiet in the chat channel. How many other patronizing platitudes are delivered automatically? Or with single click buttons on the "care representative's" console? Does anyone actually like these interfaces? Do people really want a bot to kiss their ass while they're trying to report a broken product? Someone seems to think so...
- ryanianian 4y ago
  > "We're so sorry for your inconvenience, thank you for your patience..." My god this pattern has to stop. Systems are making it impossible to just wait for a human while doing something else. The worst seems to be telephone companies advertising their own offerings on hold, but even my dog's vet has introduced this "CHECK OUT OUR APP FOR APPOINTMENTS" thing in their hold music. You have to constantly be on guard because everything that sounds like a human might or might not actually be a human. Please just give me light, instrumental music to know I'm not disconnected and stfu. I think this is further evidence of what happens when corporate/pr/product people are rewarded for marginal improvements in bottom-line metrics despite the long-term expense of customer satisfaction. Eventually the margin curve flips negative. Hopefully.
mariodiana 4y ago
The purpose of Newspeak was to bypass the rational faculty and trigger an emotional reaction in the listener (as well as confining the speaker to the appropriate emotional state). The purpose of Nicespeak is the same.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
islanderfun 4y ago
I'm a little confused here and I'm sure I'm missing the point. This article seems to argue (and some comments here) that being rude should be normal? Why? Why wouldn't we be nice to customers for their business? On the other hand, hasn't bullshit/passive-aggressiveness/etc been always called out?
- silmari 4y ago
  I share the confusion, that the article seems to bash at nice, everyday phrases without giving the same nice kind of alternatives to lubricate communication, but rather it gives irony and satire, which are of the other end. The point of the article isn't about rudeness but making a meaningful conversation, and that passivity and talking from rulebooks doesn't really help from the author's point of view.
- omginternets 4y ago
  I’m not sure where you got that idea from. The thesis is that there is a distinction to be made between ordinary civility and “nicespeak”. The distinction is that the latter is insincere, and serves the interests of a corporate power structure.
- treve 4y ago
  I think the author is just not very self aware. The rules of communication do change, but they probably weren't aware of the unwritten social cues that they picked up earlier in life. Cues that probably were equally annoying and frustrating to someone a generation earlier. I think lots of people would be a bit more at peace once they start embracing the fact that language and culture are always going to be moving and changing. Thing are going to feel awkward and forced until they feel normal and you'll continue to be expected to adjust to the norms. Some of those norms will suggest that you've been doing certain things 'wrong' all your life and it's gonna be hard to swallow, but everyone will always go through this stuff and this is why you can probably find some rants against political correctness for as long as there have been columns in newspapers. It's a complete waste of energy, I hope the author found some peace in the 22 years since this article.
- pdonis 4y ago
at_a_remove 4y ago
My un-favorite non-pology language is "I'm sorry you feel that way."
johnea 4y ago
Do we need customer end bot tools to maintain any hope of interacting with corporations on equal footing?
seti0Cha 4y ago
It seems to me that nicespeak is nothing more than our culture's embodiment of courtesy, or etiquette. Our society self-consciously strives to be egalitarian, so formality and honorifics sit poorly with us. However, unscripted social interactions are fraught with danger. They can easily become awkward or lead to misunderstandings. Etiquette provides a framework a person can operate within wherein you don't have to worry about what the other person will think or feel. This is particularly valuable in a business context, so our institutions strive to fabricate this framework. There's nothing wrong with this, as long as everyone recognizes it for what it is. We harmlessly exchange stock phrases, like "how are you", to which the proper responses include "fine, and you?", or "not too bad, yourself?" or the like. The person who says "oh, terrible" and proceeds to tell you about it has violated the social contract and imposed a burden on the other party. The person behind the counter at the fast food restaurant doesn't want to have to think to say "I hope you enjoy that milk", or find some other way to close the conversation, so they're just as happy to say that stock phrase "enjoy your meal" and be done with you.
- sanderjd 4y ago
  Interesting perspective! I'm not sure I agree with it, but I'm glad I read it.
- ARandomerDude 4y ago
  I don’t think that’s the main point of the article (though it is addressed). The problem with Nicespeak is it becomes a mandatory form of expression. See, for example, mission statements at universities (TFA). Without these obligatory technocrat documents, universities will be stripped of funding and accreditation. To provide a slightly more contemporary take, see the censorship/moderation debate in public discourse today. I think a direct line can be drawn between societal Nicespeak and our almost compulsive need to scrub social media et al. of anything sufficiently nonconformist.
  - pdonis 4y ago
    I don't think the author's problem with things like mission statements is primarily that they are mandatory. I think her primary problem with them is that they misrepresent what the organization actually does and how well (or poorly) it actually does it. It is true, though, that a key reason why they have to misrepresent is, so to speak, grade inflation: any organization that doesn't portray itself (however unjustifiably) as perfect at its nominal mission in all public statements loses funding to those that do.
dpedu 4y ago
I couldn't help but think of one of Carlin's acts while reading this - Advertising. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtK_YsVInw8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtK_YsVInw8
awb 4y ago
Just like shaking hands was a tradition to show that you hold no weapons, speaking nicely is a social signal that you mean no harm. Both peace signals can be ruses, but if you approach with a closed fist or a sharp tongue, it makes a peaceful interaction more challenging.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lostmsu 4y ago
  Verbal battles are not like physical battles. The later lead to harm and death, the former - to some form of truth.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    That's a lot of dumbing things down there. If you think verbal battles have never caused harm, then I would love to live in your bubble. As much as I'm ashamed of it now, I was verbally abusive in my younger days. You can speak to anyone of the people on the receiving end on just how not non-harmful it was. I still blame that behavior a lot on how I was treated by a parent. Once I recognized that I was just behaving the same way was when I finally consciously tried changing. I was close to 30, so there was a long wake of damage.
    - lostmsu 4y ago
      People tend to confuse cognitive dissonance with damage. If you speak of speech consisting of only personal attacks rather than a heated debate, you are right. But I think this discussion is not about simple slanging matches.
      - dylan604 4y ago
        "Cognitive dissonance is a term for the state of discomfort felt when two or more modes of thought contradict each other." If you think that's all verbal abuse is about, then my friend, you really should look into this more before posting things in an all knowing sounding manner on a public forum. I'm happy you've never been exposed to true verbal abuse.
silmari 4y ago
It seems like the problem is not on Nicespeak itself but more on the power structure that enforce such style of communication. Nicespeak itself feels like an essential lubricating part of the language but what makes it Nicespeak and not "nice words" is the authority.
- omginternets 4y ago
  I think the very definition of nicespeak is that it serves a corporate power structure. That’s what distinguishes it from ordinary civility.
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  Niceness itself is a lubricant. Nicespeak may be more analogous to a higher performing synthetic lubricant that however has some severe downsides, such as inferior performance, when used outside of its design parameters.
- SuoDuanDao 4y ago
  It's a very diffuse and unaccountable authority though. I've seen the take that nicespeak is a stand-in for social class - upper classes have the tutors and entertainment preferences to learn nicespeak. Failure to conform to the requirements of nicespeak is like signaling membership in the working/uneducated class, which leads to social exclusion particularly in managerial positions. But it's not from a central authority, more a consensus partially based on fear of association. Seems like a decent analysis to me - does anyone have a critique?
  - jollyllama 4y ago
    I'm with you on the first part. If I'm subordinate or dependent in a relationship, just openly treat me that way; there's no shame in that. The patronizing nicespeak is more objectionable.
  - alanlammiman 4y ago
    Perhaps less so in the UK and other places than in the US? It's TV so who knows, but I loved the episode in The Crown where Princess Margaret says to a middle-class Margaret Thatcher something like "Just say 'What?'. Never beg for anything, much less for pardon".
jspash 4y ago
Recently I've been encountering more and more service workers who are AMAZED at my INCREDIBLE and AWESOME choice from the menu. Until now I didn't think I had any sort of special ordering skills. I mean, they hand me a menu and I have no choice but to select 2-3 items from said menu. Just like everyone else. But I've come to realise that MY particular choice of those items is somehow better than the common man. I have a skill that was previously untapped and has only now come to light. SUPER!
NoboruWataya 4y ago
I agree about things like mission statements being rather silly and tedious, particularly in a corporate context where, as the author notes, the only real mission is to make money for shareholders. In fact I think a mission statement is marginally less pointless in the context of a public institution because, frankly, it's not always clear what the end goal of a lot of those institutions are. I don't really see the problem with this, however: > What, for instance, was the mysterious "quality" that we discussed at every meeting? What did people mean when they spoke earnestly about "aims and objectives" and "learning outcomes"? If people are discussing "quality" I presume they are referring to quality of output, ie, you want whatever good or service you are delivering to be good, not bad. And knowing the aims, objectives and outcomes of meetings, projects, etc, is absolutely a positive thing. There is no "fake sincerity" as far as I can see. There is politeness - sure, maybe it is fake politeness (discounting the possibility that your server actually wants you to enjoy your meal). But it's still better than rudeness which is quite often the alternative. Frankly it sounds as though the author is simply annoyed at (i) the private sector, for being the private sector, and (ii) the public sector, for looking to introduce the same focus on customer service and accountability that has long been present in the private sector.
- wallfacer120 4y ago
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wallfacer120 4y ago
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TehShrike 4y ago
To some extent, nicespeak is the shibboleth of the middle class. A few don't have to speak it, and many never learn. They usually stand out in professional settings
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Fussell calls out all kinds of indirect or euphemistic "polite" speech as middle-class. "Passed away" versus "died", even. "High" speech is much more direct. You don't butter people up before asking for something, or apologize for being a bother, for example. You just ask. You don't dance around what you want, or what happened, you simply state it.
DebbieNicespeak 4y ago
Hi all, I'm the person who wrote this. Thanks for this unexpected trip down memory lane, which is also an insight into how things have changed. Remember I wrote this more than 20 years ago when scripted service of any kind was new in the UK, and we really didn't interact with websites much or chatbots at all. Mission statements and suchlike were also fairly new, especially in public institutions.Evidently familiarity has made us more accepting of some things but even less so of others, as you'd expect. Anyway,it was fun reading the comments,so thanks and have a nice day
- mannykannot 4y ago
  Now I'm wondering if the study of insincerity has become a recognized academic field. It would seem to be inherently cross-disciplinary, with elements of psychology, sociology and politics, in addition to the linguistic aspect.
  - Msw242 4y ago
    Ah yes, so that we can have graduates get B.S. in BS
- jimmygrapes 4y ago
  What has changed? I would have guessed this article was written in 2017 at the earliest.
- ladon86 4y ago
  > thanks and have a nice day I’m choosing to read this as a wry nod to the present-day pervasiveness of nicespeak.
- snapdaddy 4y ago
  If you were asked to provide guidance for companies who wished to avoid using nicespeak, what recommendations would you provide? And do you have advice for situations where a company might want to emphasise/de-emphasise aspects of the truth to market itself?
- robtherobber 4y ago
Ekaros 4y ago
And some terminology is so fun when they are essentially messing over you. Mandatory gratuity, hmm why not just call if service-charge? Or just directly include it in price and not even mention it?
- akomtu 4y ago
  It's guilt tax. If you price your coffee honestly, at 8 usd, but your competitor at 5 usd with gotcha fees, guess where customers will flock to.
  - alanlammiman 4y ago
    I realize it may just have been a placeholder. But LOL at the implication that 5 USD is dishonest for a cup of mostly warm water in most places of the universe
- floren 4y ago
  Or, in SF, you'll get an item near the bottom of your receipt labeled "SF Mandate". What's the mandate? Employers have to pay for employee health care. Why isn't it rolled in to the prices? Partly passive aggressive sniping at city hall, partly to keep the menu prices low. The "SF Mandate" portion is taxable, though, so it really is just them adding a hidden fee. https://www.sfchronicle.com/restaurants/article/Explainer-What-is-this-SF-Mandates-13254923.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/restaurants/article/Explainer-Wh...
jameshart 4y ago
This is timely. One of the fascinating things about chatGPT is its facility with precisely this kind of language usage. The trite ‘nicespeak’ phrases and word choices all contribute precisely zero additional information content or value; that they can be convincingly simulated by the LLM just picking the most appropriate next token suggests honestly that that’s also exactly how they’re employed by humans - just as meaningless padding around the core message. I see a lot of people looking at GPT outputs and saying things like ‘this is great it can take my three bulletpoints and turn them into a complete presentation script!’ - to me that suggests you should skip the presentation and just send a text with the three bulletpoints. GPT is great at adding this performative ‘packaging’. I really hope what that teaches us is we don’t need to waste time with the packaging in the first place.
xtiansimon 4y ago
And it continues with overseas call center workers who blather about how much they “understand“ your concerns, but in fact do not. Or how sorry they are “you’re experiencing this this problem” and “understand how important your return of the wrong size socks is to you”. Sheesh
TwoNineFive 4y ago
Irony and satire are not effective against Nicespeak because those who engage in it are either evil or stupid. The evil know what they are doing and will meet you with hostility for being called out. The stupid will react with confusion, frustration, and ultimately hostility for your failure to engage with them in the pleasantly appeasing mediocrity which it requires. See The Endgames of Bad Faith Communication https://consilienceproject.org/endgames-of-bad-communication/ https://consilienceproject.org/endgames-of-bad-communication... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30997666 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30997666

102 points by robtherobber 4y ago

Great read, until the conclusion that Irony and Sarcasm are better weapons against Nicespeak than George Orwell's plain English is. Getting people to speak in vitriolic Opposites is no better than making them speak empty Compliments...

watwut 4y ago
I agree. Both irony and sarcasm are purely emotion based "arguments" and often just socially acceptable lies. Ok, so now you made some service worker feel bad for no reason. They are kind of paid for that, but still. And with that, I find the language author complains about better. If it achieves nothing I just ignore that.
z3c0 4y ago
I agree. The correction to "fake sincerity" isn't "ironic sincerity" - it's just regularly sincerity and old-fashioned earnestness. The article really dates itself with that assertion, because this was written right before the internet saturated every exchange with holier-than-thou sarcasm and multiple layers of irony. Now that we've lived through phenomena like the Wendy's Twitter account and cutesy 404 pages, this just seems terribly off-base.
- sanderjd 4y ago
  Earnestness is so underrated.
readthenotes1 4y ago
You put that better than anyone else could have! ;)
warmcompress 4y ago
"We should try", "may be ... effective"; propositions are not hard conclusions. The biggest whiff for me in this essay is the idea that people aren't acutely aware of the fakeness. It would be like her acknowledging no irony in holding the Rupert Murdoch Professorship in Language and Communication.
- johnea 4y ago
  Irony indeed. This pretty much provides the final proof of the corporate takeover of academia. If you're planning on being faculty in modern higher education, you very well better have some rich person's name in your title! Your alternative? You can always be an underpaid, un-insured, temporary adjunct! This 20 year old article certainly calls out the complete insincerity of the modern corporation's interface to it's customers. Especially when those customers are the retail masses. The really scariest part to me, is that many modern consumers seem to think this is all OK. "As long as the bot keeps kissing my ass I feel so taken care of" <-- This is the ultimate irony...
drewcoo 4y ago
> Getting people to speak in vitriolic Opposites is no better than making them speak empty Compliments... Whereas policing their emotions to make sure they feel the right thing when they make words . . . ew!
omginternets 4y ago
I don’t think sarcasm has to be vitriolic. In response to the example of a store announcement that says “in order to better serve you, we will be closed this afternoon”, one might respond with “I feel better-served already!” There’s hardly any vitriol, and the absurdity of the situation is promptly exposed.

dstroot 4y ago

> in a world where a notice can announce in all seriousness: "In order to better serve you, we are closed this afternoon." This is so spot-on. I am not sure this qualifies as "nicespeak" but if you pay attention you will hear this type of messaging everywhere. As we hear it we seem to just nod along and miss the fundamental irony of it.

floren 4y ago
"Please listen closely, as our menu options have changed. Did you know you can check your account balance, order checks, apply for a loan, or get a new debit card online? Visit w w w dot your bank name dot com forward slash banking for more information." ---> Please hang up before we actually have to make somebody pick up the phone "Due to the ongoing pandemic, for the safety of guests and staff we will not make up your room unless requested" ---> Thank god, we can cut our cleaning staff "Due to the ongoing drought conditions, water will only be served for customers who request it" ---> We wash half as many glasses this way COVID in general was a great excuse for a lot of companies to do something they've wanted to do for years (reduce business hours, cancel contracts, cut staff, reduce stock on hand, etc.) while acting like they're doing the world a favor.
- booleandilemma 4y ago
  I love these. Another one I've seen recently is large Manhattan office buildings asking people to use revolving doors "to help save the environment". (i.e. help us save on electricity costs for heating and A/C)
- function_seven 4y ago
  I saw this on the doors of my local shopping mall: MALL HOURS ========== For your convenience, The Galleria's operating hours are available online Followed by a huge QR code. Um, no. It's really inconvenient to have to grab a phone, scan a code, wait for the slow site to load, give apologies to others who want to walk in the door, etc. Oh, and let's say I get there before they open. Before I could just drive by and see the hours on the door. Now I have to stop, get out, scan the code, ... It's a small gripe for sure, but those are my favorite types.

ARandomerDude 4y ago

> as a friend of mine observed when asked to speak at a conference on "pursuing excellence in facilities management": "Who the hell would pursue second-rateness?" Most people, actually – though few are so bold as to announce it. That said, I agree with the point: although individuals may not pursue greatness, public institutions always should.

mananaysiempre 4y ago
“So how do you hire more B players?”[1] [1] https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=How_to_Hire_Insanely_Great_Employees.txt https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&stor...
- fsckboy 4y ago
  > "A players hire A players," he said. "B players hire C players. Do you get it?" > Apparently not. Somebody in the back of the room raised his hand and asked, "so how do you hire more B players?" I think that guy did get it, but he worded it wrong, he meant to say, "so, who hired those B players?"
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    Right. He's spotted that the "rule" may have a little truth to it, but is also kinda just bullshit.
  - Nasrudith 4y ago
    Better B players who are insecure enough to specifically hire worse than themselves, but still B-players. If going by lower as better it would technically be B subscript N players hire B subscript N+1 players. But that is unwieldy and worryingly niche of a reference for a society which relies so much upon mathematics.
jasmer 4y ago
Public institutions need to pursue competence. If they could effectively do the things they are supposed to, we'd be mostly pretty good.

watwut 4y ago

Learning accent, idioms and cultural references were always parts of learning a language or judging how you learned that. Even years ago and in normal language class lessons. Watching entertainment or reading books were always part of that. And my friends going for American universities 20 years ago were memorizing cultural references idioms etc along with unusual words and what not. Cause it was a on the test.

johnea 4y ago

Very well timed post! The author really should produce an update for the new millennium. I was just ranting about this yesterday, after having to endure a chat session w/ a "customer care associate". The blatantly patronizing platitudes are really rudeness with flowers, and highlight the corporations use of exploited offshore call center workers as a human shield against the frustration of their customers. I'd also be curious to know about the tech of delivering "We're so sorry for your inconvenience, thank you for your patience..." messages automatically after certain periods of quiet in the chat channel. How many other patronizing platitudes are delivered automatically? Or with single click buttons on the "care representative's" console? Does anyone actually like these interfaces? Do people really want a bot to kiss their ass while they're trying to report a broken product? Someone seems to think so...

ryanianian 4y ago
> "We're so sorry for your inconvenience, thank you for your patience..." My god this pattern has to stop. Systems are making it impossible to just wait for a human while doing something else. The worst seems to be telephone companies advertising their own offerings on hold, but even my dog's vet has introduced this "CHECK OUT OUR APP FOR APPOINTMENTS" thing in their hold music. You have to constantly be on guard because everything that sounds like a human might or might not actually be a human. Please just give me light, instrumental music to know I'm not disconnected and stfu. I think this is further evidence of what happens when corporate/pr/product people are rewarded for marginal improvements in bottom-line metrics despite the long-term expense of customer satisfaction. Eventually the margin curve flips negative. Hopefully.

mariodiana 4y ago

The purpose of Newspeak was to bypass the rational faculty and trigger an emotional reaction in the listener (as well as confining the speaker to the appropriate emotional state). The purpose of Nicespeak is the same.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

islanderfun 4y ago

I'm a little confused here and I'm sure I'm missing the point. This article seems to argue (and some comments here) that being rude should be normal? Why? Why wouldn't we be nice to customers for their business? On the other hand, hasn't bullshit/passive-aggressiveness/etc been always called out?

silmari 4y ago
I share the confusion, that the article seems to bash at nice, everyday phrases without giving the same nice kind of alternatives to lubricate communication, but rather it gives irony and satire, which are of the other end. The point of the article isn't about rudeness but making a meaningful conversation, and that passivity and talking from rulebooks doesn't really help from the author's point of view.
omginternets 4y ago
I’m not sure where you got that idea from. The thesis is that there is a distinction to be made between ordinary civility and “nicespeak”. The distinction is that the latter is insincere, and serves the interests of a corporate power structure.
treve 4y ago
I think the author is just not very self aware. The rules of communication do change, but they probably weren't aware of the unwritten social cues that they picked up earlier in life. Cues that probably were equally annoying and frustrating to someone a generation earlier. I think lots of people would be a bit more at peace once they start embracing the fact that language and culture are always going to be moving and changing. Thing are going to feel awkward and forced until they feel normal and you'll continue to be expected to adjust to the norms. Some of those norms will suggest that you've been doing certain things 'wrong' all your life and it's gonna be hard to swallow, but everyone will always go through this stuff and this is why you can probably find some rants against political correctness for as long as there have been columns in newspapers. It's a complete waste of energy, I hope the author found some peace in the 22 years since this article.
pdonis 4y ago

at_a_remove 4y ago

My un-favorite non-pology language is "I'm sorry you feel that way."

johnea 4y ago

Do we need customer end bot tools to maintain any hope of interacting with corporations on equal footing?

seti0Cha 4y ago

It seems to me that nicespeak is nothing more than our culture's embodiment of courtesy, or etiquette. Our society self-consciously strives to be egalitarian, so formality and honorifics sit poorly with us. However, unscripted social interactions are fraught with danger. They can easily become awkward or lead to misunderstandings. Etiquette provides a framework a person can operate within wherein you don't have to worry about what the other person will think or feel. This is particularly valuable in a business context, so our institutions strive to fabricate this framework. There's nothing wrong with this, as long as everyone recognizes it for what it is. We harmlessly exchange stock phrases, like "how are you", to which the proper responses include "fine, and you?", or "not too bad, yourself?" or the like. The person who says "oh, terrible" and proceeds to tell you about it has violated the social contract and imposed a burden on the other party. The person behind the counter at the fast food restaurant doesn't want to have to think to say "I hope you enjoy that milk", or find some other way to close the conversation, so they're just as happy to say that stock phrase "enjoy your meal" and be done with you.

sanderjd 4y ago
Interesting perspective! I'm not sure I agree with it, but I'm glad I read it.
ARandomerDude 4y ago
I don’t think that’s the main point of the article (though it is addressed). The problem with Nicespeak is it becomes a mandatory form of expression. See, for example, mission statements at universities (TFA). Without these obligatory technocrat documents, universities will be stripped of funding and accreditation. To provide a slightly more contemporary take, see the censorship/moderation debate in public discourse today. I think a direct line can be drawn between societal Nicespeak and our almost compulsive need to scrub social media et al. of anything sufficiently nonconformist.
- pdonis 4y ago
  I don't think the author's problem with things like mission statements is primarily that they are mandatory. I think her primary problem with them is that they misrepresent what the organization actually does and how well (or poorly) it actually does it. It is true, though, that a key reason why they have to misrepresent is, so to speak, grade inflation: any organization that doesn't portray itself (however unjustifiably) as perfect at its nominal mission in all public statements loses funding to those that do.

dpedu 4y ago

I couldn't help but think of one of Carlin's acts while reading this - Advertising. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtK_YsVInw8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtK_YsVInw8

awb 4y ago

Just like shaking hands was a tradition to show that you hold no weapons, speaking nicely is a social signal that you mean no harm. Both peace signals can be ruses, but if you approach with a closed fist or a sharp tongue, it makes a peaceful interaction more challenging.

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lostmsu 4y ago
Verbal battles are not like physical battles. The later lead to harm and death, the former - to some form of truth.
- dylan604 4y ago
  That's a lot of dumbing things down there. If you think verbal battles have never caused harm, then I would love to live in your bubble. As much as I'm ashamed of it now, I was verbally abusive in my younger days. You can speak to anyone of the people on the receiving end on just how not non-harmful it was. I still blame that behavior a lot on how I was treated by a parent. Once I recognized that I was just behaving the same way was when I finally consciously tried changing. I was close to 30, so there was a long wake of damage.
  - lostmsu 4y ago
    People tend to confuse cognitive dissonance with damage. If you speak of speech consisting of only personal attacks rather than a heated debate, you are right. But I think this discussion is not about simple slanging matches.
    - dylan604 4y ago
      "Cognitive dissonance is a term for the state of discomfort felt when two or more modes of thought contradict each other." If you think that's all verbal abuse is about, then my friend, you really should look into this more before posting things in an all knowing sounding manner on a public forum. I'm happy you've never been exposed to true verbal abuse.

silmari 4y ago

It seems like the problem is not on Nicespeak itself but more on the power structure that enforce such style of communication. Nicespeak itself feels like an essential lubricating part of the language but what makes it Nicespeak and not "nice words" is the authority.

omginternets 4y ago
I think the very definition of nicespeak is that it serves a corporate power structure. That’s what distinguishes it from ordinary civility.
MichaelZuo 4y ago
Niceness itself is a lubricant. Nicespeak may be more analogous to a higher performing synthetic lubricant that however has some severe downsides, such as inferior performance, when used outside of its design parameters.
SuoDuanDao 4y ago
It's a very diffuse and unaccountable authority though. I've seen the take that nicespeak is a stand-in for social class - upper classes have the tutors and entertainment preferences to learn nicespeak. Failure to conform to the requirements of nicespeak is like signaling membership in the working/uneducated class, which leads to social exclusion particularly in managerial positions. But it's not from a central authority, more a consensus partially based on fear of association. Seems like a decent analysis to me - does anyone have a critique?
- jollyllama 4y ago
  I'm with you on the first part. If I'm subordinate or dependent in a relationship, just openly treat me that way; there's no shame in that. The patronizing nicespeak is more objectionable.
- alanlammiman 4y ago
  Perhaps less so in the UK and other places than in the US? It's TV so who knows, but I loved the episode in The Crown where Princess Margaret says to a middle-class Margaret Thatcher something like "Just say 'What?'. Never beg for anything, much less for pardon".

jspash 4y ago

Recently I've been encountering more and more service workers who are AMAZED at my INCREDIBLE and AWESOME choice from the menu. Until now I didn't think I had any sort of special ordering skills. I mean, they hand me a menu and I have no choice but to select 2-3 items from said menu. Just like everyone else. But I've come to realise that MY particular choice of those items is somehow better than the common man. I have a skill that was previously untapped and has only now come to light. SUPER!

NoboruWataya 4y ago

I agree about things like mission statements being rather silly and tedious, particularly in a corporate context where, as the author notes, the only real mission is to make money for shareholders. In fact I think a mission statement is marginally less pointless in the context of a public institution because, frankly, it's not always clear what the end goal of a lot of those institutions are. I don't really see the problem with this, however: > What, for instance, was the mysterious "quality" that we discussed at every meeting? What did people mean when they spoke earnestly about "aims and objectives" and "learning outcomes"? If people are discussing "quality" I presume they are referring to quality of output, ie, you want whatever good or service you are delivering to be good, not bad. And knowing the aims, objectives and outcomes of meetings, projects, etc, is absolutely a positive thing. There is no "fake sincerity" as far as I can see. There is politeness - sure, maybe it is fake politeness (discounting the possibility that your server actually wants you to enjoy your meal). But it's still better than rudeness which is quite often the alternative. Frankly it sounds as though the author is simply annoyed at (i) the private sector, for being the private sector, and (ii) the public sector, for looking to introduce the same focus on customer service and accountability that has long been present in the private sector.

wallfacer120 4y ago
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wallfacer120 4y ago

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TehShrike 4y ago

To some extent, nicespeak is the shibboleth of the middle class. A few don't have to speak it, and many never learn. They usually stand out in professional settings

yamtaddle 4y ago
Fussell calls out all kinds of indirect or euphemistic "polite" speech as middle-class. "Passed away" versus "died", even. "High" speech is much more direct. You don't butter people up before asking for something, or apologize for being a bother, for example. You just ask. You don't dance around what you want, or what happened, you simply state it.

DebbieNicespeak 4y ago

Hi all, I'm the person who wrote this. Thanks for this unexpected trip down memory lane, which is also an insight into how things have changed. Remember I wrote this more than 20 years ago when scripted service of any kind was new in the UK, and we really didn't interact with websites much or chatbots at all. Mission statements and suchlike were also fairly new, especially in public institutions.Evidently familiarity has made us more accepting of some things but even less so of others, as you'd expect. Anyway,it was fun reading the comments,so thanks and have a nice day

mannykannot 4y ago
Now I'm wondering if the study of insincerity has become a recognized academic field. It would seem to be inherently cross-disciplinary, with elements of psychology, sociology and politics, in addition to the linguistic aspect.
- Msw242 4y ago
  Ah yes, so that we can have graduates get B.S. in BS
jimmygrapes 4y ago
What has changed? I would have guessed this article was written in 2017 at the earliest.
ladon86 4y ago
> thanks and have a nice day I’m choosing to read this as a wry nod to the present-day pervasiveness of nicespeak.
snapdaddy 4y ago
If you were asked to provide guidance for companies who wished to avoid using nicespeak, what recommendations would you provide? And do you have advice for situations where a company might want to emphasise/de-emphasise aspects of the truth to market itself?
robtherobber 4y ago

Ekaros 4y ago

And some terminology is so fun when they are essentially messing over you. Mandatory gratuity, hmm why not just call if service-charge? Or just directly include it in price and not even mention it?

akomtu 4y ago
It's guilt tax. If you price your coffee honestly, at 8 usd, but your competitor at 5 usd with gotcha fees, guess where customers will flock to.
- alanlammiman 4y ago
  I realize it may just have been a placeholder. But LOL at the implication that 5 USD is dishonest for a cup of mostly warm water in most places of the universe
floren 4y ago
Or, in SF, you'll get an item near the bottom of your receipt labeled "SF Mandate". What's the mandate? Employers have to pay for employee health care. Why isn't it rolled in to the prices? Partly passive aggressive sniping at city hall, partly to keep the menu prices low. The "SF Mandate" portion is taxable, though, so it really is just them adding a hidden fee. https://www.sfchronicle.com/restaurants/article/Explainer-What-is-this-SF-Mandates-13254923.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/restaurants/article/Explainer-Wh...

jameshart 4y ago

This is timely. One of the fascinating things about chatGPT is its facility with precisely this kind of language usage. The trite ‘nicespeak’ phrases and word choices all contribute precisely zero additional information content or value; that they can be convincingly simulated by the LLM just picking the most appropriate next token suggests honestly that that’s also exactly how they’re employed by humans - just as meaningless padding around the core message. I see a lot of people looking at GPT outputs and saying things like ‘this is great it can take my three bulletpoints and turn them into a complete presentation script!’ - to me that suggests you should skip the presentation and just send a text with the three bulletpoints. GPT is great at adding this performative ‘packaging’. I really hope what that teaches us is we don’t need to waste time with the packaging in the first place.

xtiansimon 4y ago

And it continues with overseas call center workers who blather about how much they “understand“ your concerns, but in fact do not. Or how sorry they are “you’re experiencing this this problem” and “understand how important your return of the wrong size socks is to you”. Sheesh

TwoNineFive 4y ago

Irony and satire are not effective against Nicespeak because those who engage in it are either evil or stupid. The evil know what they are doing and will meet you with hostility for being called out. The stupid will react with confusion, frustration, and ultimately hostility for your failure to engage with them in the pleasantly appeasing mediocrity which it requires. See The Endgames of Bad Faith Communication https://consilienceproject.org/endgames-of-bad-communication/ https://consilienceproject.org/endgames-of-bad-communication... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30997666 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30997666