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I would strongly argue against the idea that the hermetic tradition has been productive. From everything ive gleaned through my occult studies, secret societies

I would strongly argue against the idea that the hermetic tradition has been productive. From everything ive gleaned through my occult studies, secret societies built on the hermetic, gnostic, or kabbalistic traditions have consistantly served to undermine the better nature of humans and society at large. All of these esoteric philosophies ultimately boil down to the worship of ones own will, and provide techniques and avenues for accruing influence in order to exert ones will on the world. The effect of this is almost universally always negative. I'd love to hear if you have strong counterexamples.

afloyd 4y ago
I believe they meant productive as in they have produced more work than expected.
tarotuser 4y ago
> I would strongly argue against the idea that the hermetic tradition has been productive. From everything ive gleaned through my occult studies, secret societies built on the hermetic, gnostic, or kabbalistic traditions have consistantly served to undermine the better nature of humans and society at large. All of these esoteric philosophies ultimately boil down to the worship of ones own will, and provide techniques and avenues for accruing influence in order to exert ones will on the world. The effect of this is almost universally always negative. Do you have proof you'd like to bring here, to back up your assertion?
- DontchaKnowit 4y ago
  Not really. Its just my own observation, having been an occult enthusiast for the past 6 years or so.
dr_dshiv 4y ago
1. Pythagorean secret societies lead to science 2. Florentine Academy leads to art 3. Hermetic inspiration of Roger Bacon, Isaac Newton, etc leads to more science 4. Gnostic Mandaens seem pretty chill. Living community. I suppose I agree that esoteric philosophies tend to emphasize personal self discovery over explicit doctrine. (Not always the case). That can lead to good or bad things. I’m surprised to hear such a negative take. Like, hard to believe they are worse than big time religions. Do you have examples?
- DontchaKnowit 4y ago
  As far as phtsical violence, yes traditional religions are worse. Although hitlers occult practices could arguably be blamed for at least some portion of the holocaust. But what I really mean is that it is destructive from a moral and societal standpoint. These occult schools (and really I am talking about anything blovatsky or crowley inspired, or adjacent. Rosecrucians, OTO, hermitic order of golden dawn, etc) promote a view of moralitt that is objectively selfish in the truest sense of the word. It makes people on confused and makes them pursue things which are not right. In the more serious cases, it completely ruins a persons moral compass. Effectively grants someone permission to behave like a sociopath ubder the guuse of "true will" orother magical bullshit.
vigormortis 4y ago
> All of these esoteric philosophies ultimately boil down to the worship of ones own will I'll acknowledge that hermeticism, gnosticism, thelema, etc are not going to be everyone's bag, and that's just fine. However.... That's a rather large overgeneralization of some quite disparate philosophies. Also, you may be working with a mistaken idea of what "will" means in this context. A person's will is (very roughly) their optimal place and trajectory in the world; it is not just following some desire or doing what you want. It is not ego based. Wills harmonize and do not clash. The flip side, and perhaps more importantly, it is wrong to interfere with someone carrying out their own will. An additional perspective: "Will" is one's personal, bedrock Truth of Self. You exert your Will on yourself, not on others. Anyway, this isn't quite the negative that you seem to be implying.
- DontchaKnowit 4y ago
  Well thats the thing is that any thelemite will tell you this, but in my view this is deception. Ultimately it boils down to the worship of self and grants you permission to dispense with any moral standard you wish, because youre following you "true will"

afloyd 4y ago

I believe they meant productive as in they have produced more work than expected.

tarotuser 4y ago

> I would strongly argue against the idea that the hermetic tradition has been productive. From everything ive gleaned through my occult studies, secret societies built on the hermetic, gnostic, or kabbalistic traditions have consistantly served to undermine the better nature of humans and society at large. All of these esoteric philosophies ultimately boil down to the worship of ones own will, and provide techniques and avenues for accruing influence in order to exert ones will on the world. The effect of this is almost universally always negative. Do you have proof you'd like to bring here, to back up your assertion?

DontchaKnowit 4y ago
Not really. Its just my own observation, having been an occult enthusiast for the past 6 years or so.

dr_dshiv 4y ago

1. Pythagorean secret societies lead to science 2. Florentine Academy leads to art 3. Hermetic inspiration of Roger Bacon, Isaac Newton, etc leads to more science 4. Gnostic Mandaens seem pretty chill. Living community. I suppose I agree that esoteric philosophies tend to emphasize personal self discovery over explicit doctrine. (Not always the case). That can lead to good or bad things. I’m surprised to hear such a negative take. Like, hard to believe they are worse than big time religions. Do you have examples?

DontchaKnowit 4y ago
As far as phtsical violence, yes traditional religions are worse. Although hitlers occult practices could arguably be blamed for at least some portion of the holocaust. But what I really mean is that it is destructive from a moral and societal standpoint. These occult schools (and really I am talking about anything blovatsky or crowley inspired, or adjacent. Rosecrucians, OTO, hermitic order of golden dawn, etc) promote a view of moralitt that is objectively selfish in the truest sense of the word. It makes people on confused and makes them pursue things which are not right. In the more serious cases, it completely ruins a persons moral compass. Effectively grants someone permission to behave like a sociopath ubder the guuse of "true will" orother magical bullshit.

vigormortis 4y ago

> All of these esoteric philosophies ultimately boil down to the worship of ones own will I'll acknowledge that hermeticism, gnosticism, thelema, etc are not going to be everyone's bag, and that's just fine. However.... That's a rather large overgeneralization of some quite disparate philosophies. Also, you may be working with a mistaken idea of what "will" means in this context. A person's will is (very roughly) their optimal place and trajectory in the world; it is not just following some desire or doing what you want. It is not ego based. Wills harmonize and do not clash. The flip side, and perhaps more importantly, it is wrong to interfere with someone carrying out their own will. An additional perspective: "Will" is one's personal, bedrock Truth of Self. You exert your Will on yourself, not on others. Anyway, this isn't quite the negative that you seem to be implying.

DontchaKnowit 4y ago
Well thats the thing is that any thelemite will tell you this, but in my view this is deception. Ultimately it boils down to the worship of self and grants you permission to dispense with any moral standard you wish, because youre following you "true will"