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"Declining birthrates, a rise in home schooling and growing competition from private and charter schools are contributing to the decline in traditional public s

"Declining birthrates, a rise in home schooling and growing competition from private and charter schools are contributing to the decline in traditional public school enrollment, according to school officials." I think the problem with public schools is really the teachers. They have put themselves on a pedestal and been conditioned into a serious superiority complex. After the chaos of the pandemic, we put our kids in private school and haven't looked back. Kids are happier and there really is something to be said when the teachers actually have to listen to the parents, instead of dismissing our concerns and telling us they know best.

ianlevesque 4y ago
There's certainly a spectrum of teacher quality out there but I worry you're falling into the same trap as those who target their aggression at customer service representatives. Public schools have a lot of issues that start at the top and teachers are just the most visible endpoints.
- tsgagnon 4y ago
  Also, quite literally selection bias, as public schools don't get to choose which students to take, other than in extreme cases.
pirate787 4y ago
One point of fact that Pew gets wrong (and is part of the teacher union disinformation campaign) -- charter schools are also public schools.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  Yes they’re just often non-union schools, which is why the teachers unions don’t like them.
  - InitialLastName 4y ago
    Alternate narrative: Teachers don't like charter schools because their business model often revolves around idealistic, frequently underqualified [0] young teachers being paid $40k/year to spend 12 hours/day as prison guards "for the good of their community". The unions are just doing their job in opposing horrific working conditions in their industry. [0] Thus with little recourse.
    - ch4s3 4y ago
      The situation is the same as an entry level teacher in non-charter schools in a lot of places, but this isn't universally true of charters. I'm not even trying to say that charters are always better, it's pretty clear that on balance they're roughly similar in terms of outcomes across all charters. That said, the really good ones absolutely outperform their peer schools by miles, and at least in NYC charters receive 28% less funding per pupil.
- dml2135 4y ago
  I don't really understand this oft-repeated line. Yes, charter schools are funded with public dollars. But are they not privately owned?
- SamBam 4y ago
  Kind of. Many charter schools are run by private boards or individuals that don't answer to the city or state [1], many are run by for-profit management companies [2]. In many states, charter schools amount to a privatization of public schools because they are run by organizations that don’t answer to the public and in some states aren’t subject to key rules that apply to government agencies, such as open meetings and public records laws. In these states, the only things that make charter schools "public" is the fact that they take money from the district or the state, and tuition is free, but in all other respects they are basically private schools. In other states they are directly under the control of the school board, and are indeed public schools. 1. https://www.forbes.com/sites/petergreene/2019/02/02/charter-schools-are-not-public-schools/?sh=7dffe4f26832 https://www.forbes.com/sites/petergreene/2019/02/02/charter-... 2. https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/what-are-charter-schools/2018/08 https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/what-are-charter-scho...
  - xhkkffbf 4y ago
    Well, they're answerable to the public in that parents can take the kids to another school if things aren't working out. And since they're paid a certain dollar amount per warm body, the school has a pretty direct feedback loop.
    - SamBam 4y ago
      Sure, but in that way a private school is public as well. > "parents can take the kids to another school if things aren't working out. And since they're paid a certain dollar amount per warm body, the school has a pretty direct feedback loop." Indeed, this is exactly why British private schools like Eton are called "public schools," because anyone can attend if they have the money. But in the US we use a different definition.
  - seneca 4y ago
    Not saying you're wrong, but I feel the need to point out the framing that something being controlled by government beurocrats is what makes it public by this definition. Charter schools are often free to attend, available for anyone to apply to, and are accountable to the families attending them and the voters who elected officials that made them legal. That's a perfectly reasonable version of "public" as well, it's just not centralized.
frogpelt 4y ago
It’s funny. If you talk to teachers the problem is the 10% of students who make the whole place miserable and no parental support. In fact, the parents make the problem worse by siding the problem students instead of helping the school fix the problem.
- p0pcult 4y ago
  As a former teacher in one of the poorest congressional districts in the country at the time (South Bronx, early 2000s), as well as the current parent of a kid in a very different (Midwestern) city's public school systems, this is the answer I would point to. Teacher quality has always been a distribution, with some good and bad outliers, but the vast majority are sufficient. What hasn't always been the case is the inability to get rid of kids who are extremely disruptive and make it impossible for education to take place. There also seems to be a bigger share of that disruption now than two decades ago, when I was teaching. I think a lot of it relates to feedback loops: in the suburban schools in my area, as well as the elite public high school in my area (requires an academic test for entrance), these problems don't exist. The problems only seem to exist in the schools where there are higher concentrations of antisocial expectations/behavior. This does tend to correlate with poverty, but poverty doesn't apprar to be causative, merely correlated: I would point out that poor kids who test into the elite public high school tend to do just fine. But, they are all there for a reason (i.e., it is a self-selecting group of people who want to test), and also worked hard enough to pass the entrance exam.
- LanceH 4y ago
  This. And the mission creep for teachers: more standardized tests every year it seems, hall duty, lunch duty, increased professional training, individualized programs for more and more students (wife had more than 20%), etc... When she was still teaching I would ask my wife if they ever had any actual classes. The high school my kids go to changed completely across covid. From no discipline problems to daily fights, vandalism, and generally (many) students ignoring anything short of police presence. Teachers are quitting in droves in a top tier school district. The only saving grace here is that it's a district that people want to get into, so they get pulled from somewhere else. I can only imagine what's going on elsewhere.
rr888 4y ago
More importantly the lack of teachers. My daughter's math teacher quit and they haven't found a replacement, just an assistant that tells them to do rote exercises each day. Her previous school's teacher was fired for something sketchy but they're brining him back.
mlyle 4y ago
I'm a private school teacher. I'd argue that there's a huge selection effect on what kinds of students you have. I have the ability to listen to parents because the vast majority of parent feedback I receive is given in good faith and because I don't end up in the ridiculous situations I hear about from public school colleagues. > They have put themselves on a pedestal and been conditioned into a serious superiority complex. Really, unless you derive some intrinsic satisfaction and feel some deep desire to do this job-- in public or private school-- there's no economic reason to do this job. Better comp is available elsewhere for most of us, and even in the relatively supportive environment I'm in, I need to cope with a lot of people who don't just think of themselves as my customers, but by social betters/superiors.
TheFreim 4y ago
> I think the problem with public schools is really the teachers. They have put themselves on a pedestal and been conditioned into a serious superiority complex. I went to public school. Where I'm from our schools, at least high school, performed at or near the top of the state performance (not a state with terrible education). I agree with your analysis. There were only a handful of teachers who were neutral or even good, many were self absorbed and put the role of "teacher", as expressed in the public school environment rather than generally, above all else. If I am able to get married and have kids I refuse to send them to public school, it's either homeschooling or private.
- xhkkffbf 4y ago
  I have to agree that this is often true. And they're not even shy about it. One teacher at my school has enough time to post political memes on Facebook at least four to five times a day. And the timestamps make it pretty obvious that he's doing it during the school day. But he doesn't care. The union has his back and he's going to be there forever until he collects his huge pension.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  You can blame the teachers, but if you think the public school environment is a cesspit of social dysfunction, authoritarianism, and abuse for the kids... well, it's not much better for the teachers. The system molds the kinds of bad teachers you saw, and drives out the good ones who don't thrive in that kind of toxic environment.
  - TheFreim 4y ago
    > The system molds the kinds of bad teachers you saw This is probably true, and that's why I oppose the system generally. There are a myriad of issues which could be addressed, but unfortunately I don't see that happening, so I encourage disengagement from the public schooling system whenever possible. It's going to be better, and easier, to build new homeschooling networks and private institutions rather than fix government schools. One of the worst things is how repeatedly we were told to "think outside the box" until that resulted in disagreement or something that didn't fit the grading/testing paradigm. Then it became a time for, as you say, authoritarian crushing down. I can only remember one teacher who fostered an environment that was both structured while still encouraging real discussion and thought, they were probably my favorite teacher which is interesting since they were also the one who I disagreed with most vehemently. I wish it had been like that more.
tsgagnon 4y ago
I think the problem with public schools is really the teachers. They have put themselves on a pedestal and been conditioned into a serious superiority complex. Actually, the problem is the parents who either don't care about their child succeeding, or only care about making sure that their child is taught exactly what the parent feels is should be true (a teacher I know was consistently harassed at the school by a grandparent who wanted her to teach the children that Obama was a terrible president and human being and got angry when she wouldn't).
ModernMech 4y ago
> conditioned into a serious superiority complex. Teachers are pretty universally overworked and underpaid in America. They face threats ranging from deadly diseases to school shooters and are expected to give their lives for their students (and have) when the threat from either is acute. They have recently been the target of political activists, causing them to receive death threats labeling them everything from "groomers" to "treasonous" for simply doing their jobs. And on top of all that, teachers are expected to be grateful for their lot. They're expected to not ask for more for themselves or they're selfish. Just look at how Teachers Unions are vilified (even here in this forum). Moreover, they're actually expected to take more abuse than they already are. In a very real sense, teachers deal with shit that no other profession has to face, especially the underworked/overpaid technocrats here on HN. Does that make them superior? No, but I think it earns them more deference than you're giving them here.

ianlevesque 4y ago

There's certainly a spectrum of teacher quality out there but I worry you're falling into the same trap as those who target their aggression at customer service representatives. Public schools have a lot of issues that start at the top and teachers are just the most visible endpoints.

tsgagnon 4y ago
Also, quite literally selection bias, as public schools don't get to choose which students to take, other than in extreme cases.

pirate787 4y ago

One point of fact that Pew gets wrong (and is part of the teacher union disinformation campaign) -- charter schools are also public schools.

ch4s3 4y ago
Yes they’re just often non-union schools, which is why the teachers unions don’t like them.
- InitialLastName 4y ago
  Alternate narrative: Teachers don't like charter schools because their business model often revolves around idealistic, frequently underqualified [0] young teachers being paid $40k/year to spend 12 hours/day as prison guards "for the good of their community". The unions are just doing their job in opposing horrific working conditions in their industry. [0] Thus with little recourse.
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    The situation is the same as an entry level teacher in non-charter schools in a lot of places, but this isn't universally true of charters. I'm not even trying to say that charters are always better, it's pretty clear that on balance they're roughly similar in terms of outcomes across all charters. That said, the really good ones absolutely outperform their peer schools by miles, and at least in NYC charters receive 28% less funding per pupil.
dml2135 4y ago
I don't really understand this oft-repeated line. Yes, charter schools are funded with public dollars. But are they not privately owned?
SamBam 4y ago
Kind of. Many charter schools are run by private boards or individuals that don't answer to the city or state [1], many are run by for-profit management companies [2]. In many states, charter schools amount to a privatization of public schools because they are run by organizations that don’t answer to the public and in some states aren’t subject to key rules that apply to government agencies, such as open meetings and public records laws. In these states, the only things that make charter schools "public" is the fact that they take money from the district or the state, and tuition is free, but in all other respects they are basically private schools. In other states they are directly under the control of the school board, and are indeed public schools. 1. https://www.forbes.com/sites/petergreene/2019/02/02/charter-schools-are-not-public-schools/?sh=7dffe4f26832 https://www.forbes.com/sites/petergreene/2019/02/02/charter-... 2. https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/what-are-charter-schools/2018/08 https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/what-are-charter-scho...
- xhkkffbf 4y ago
  Well, they're answerable to the public in that parents can take the kids to another school if things aren't working out. And since they're paid a certain dollar amount per warm body, the school has a pretty direct feedback loop.
  - SamBam 4y ago
    Sure, but in that way a private school is public as well. > "parents can take the kids to another school if things aren't working out. And since they're paid a certain dollar amount per warm body, the school has a pretty direct feedback loop." Indeed, this is exactly why British private schools like Eton are called "public schools," because anyone can attend if they have the money. But in the US we use a different definition.
- seneca 4y ago
  Not saying you're wrong, but I feel the need to point out the framing that something being controlled by government beurocrats is what makes it public by this definition. Charter schools are often free to attend, available for anyone to apply to, and are accountable to the families attending them and the voters who elected officials that made them legal. That's a perfectly reasonable version of "public" as well, it's just not centralized.

frogpelt 4y ago

It’s funny. If you talk to teachers the problem is the 10% of students who make the whole place miserable and no parental support. In fact, the parents make the problem worse by siding the problem students instead of helping the school fix the problem.

p0pcult 4y ago
As a former teacher in one of the poorest congressional districts in the country at the time (South Bronx, early 2000s), as well as the current parent of a kid in a very different (Midwestern) city's public school systems, this is the answer I would point to. Teacher quality has always been a distribution, with some good and bad outliers, but the vast majority are sufficient. What hasn't always been the case is the inability to get rid of kids who are extremely disruptive and make it impossible for education to take place. There also seems to be a bigger share of that disruption now than two decades ago, when I was teaching. I think a lot of it relates to feedback loops: in the suburban schools in my area, as well as the elite public high school in my area (requires an academic test for entrance), these problems don't exist. The problems only seem to exist in the schools where there are higher concentrations of antisocial expectations/behavior. This does tend to correlate with poverty, but poverty doesn't apprar to be causative, merely correlated: I would point out that poor kids who test into the elite public high school tend to do just fine. But, they are all there for a reason (i.e., it is a self-selecting group of people who want to test), and also worked hard enough to pass the entrance exam.
LanceH 4y ago
This. And the mission creep for teachers: more standardized tests every year it seems, hall duty, lunch duty, increased professional training, individualized programs for more and more students (wife had more than 20%), etc... When she was still teaching I would ask my wife if they ever had any actual classes. The high school my kids go to changed completely across covid. From no discipline problems to daily fights, vandalism, and generally (many) students ignoring anything short of police presence. Teachers are quitting in droves in a top tier school district. The only saving grace here is that it's a district that people want to get into, so they get pulled from somewhere else. I can only imagine what's going on elsewhere.

rr888 4y ago

More importantly the lack of teachers. My daughter's math teacher quit and they haven't found a replacement, just an assistant that tells them to do rote exercises each day. Her previous school's teacher was fired for something sketchy but they're brining him back.

mlyle 4y ago

I'm a private school teacher. I'd argue that there's a huge selection effect on what kinds of students you have. I have the ability to listen to parents because the vast majority of parent feedback I receive is given in good faith and because I don't end up in the ridiculous situations I hear about from public school colleagues. > They have put themselves on a pedestal and been conditioned into a serious superiority complex. Really, unless you derive some intrinsic satisfaction and feel some deep desire to do this job-- in public or private school-- there's no economic reason to do this job. Better comp is available elsewhere for most of us, and even in the relatively supportive environment I'm in, I need to cope with a lot of people who don't just think of themselves as my customers, but by social betters/superiors.

TheFreim 4y ago

> I think the problem with public schools is really the teachers. They have put themselves on a pedestal and been conditioned into a serious superiority complex. I went to public school. Where I'm from our schools, at least high school, performed at or near the top of the state performance (not a state with terrible education). I agree with your analysis. There were only a handful of teachers who were neutral or even good, many were self absorbed and put the role of "teacher", as expressed in the public school environment rather than generally, above all else. If I am able to get married and have kids I refuse to send them to public school, it's either homeschooling or private.

xhkkffbf 4y ago
I have to agree that this is often true. And they're not even shy about it. One teacher at my school has enough time to post political memes on Facebook at least four to five times a day. And the timestamps make it pretty obvious that he's doing it during the school day. But he doesn't care. The union has his back and he's going to be there forever until he collects his huge pension.
yamtaddle 4y ago
You can blame the teachers, but if you think the public school environment is a cesspit of social dysfunction, authoritarianism, and abuse for the kids... well, it's not much better for the teachers. The system molds the kinds of bad teachers you saw, and drives out the good ones who don't thrive in that kind of toxic environment.
- TheFreim 4y ago
  > The system molds the kinds of bad teachers you saw This is probably true, and that's why I oppose the system generally. There are a myriad of issues which could be addressed, but unfortunately I don't see that happening, so I encourage disengagement from the public schooling system whenever possible. It's going to be better, and easier, to build new homeschooling networks and private institutions rather than fix government schools. One of the worst things is how repeatedly we were told to "think outside the box" until that resulted in disagreement or something that didn't fit the grading/testing paradigm. Then it became a time for, as you say, authoritarian crushing down. I can only remember one teacher who fostered an environment that was both structured while still encouraging real discussion and thought, they were probably my favorite teacher which is interesting since they were also the one who I disagreed with most vehemently. I wish it had been like that more.

tsgagnon 4y ago

I think the problem with public schools is really the teachers. They have put themselves on a pedestal and been conditioned into a serious superiority complex. Actually, the problem is the parents who either don't care about their child succeeding, or only care about making sure that their child is taught exactly what the parent feels is should be true (a teacher I know was consistently harassed at the school by a grandparent who wanted her to teach the children that Obama was a terrible president and human being and got angry when she wouldn't).

ModernMech 4y ago

> conditioned into a serious superiority complex. Teachers are pretty universally overworked and underpaid in America. They face threats ranging from deadly diseases to school shooters and are expected to give their lives for their students (and have) when the threat from either is acute. They have recently been the target of political activists, causing them to receive death threats labeling them everything from "groomers" to "treasonous" for simply doing their jobs. And on top of all that, teachers are expected to be grateful for their lot. They're expected to not ask for more for themselves or they're selfish. Just look at how Teachers Unions are vilified (even here in this forum). Moreover, they're actually expected to take more abuse than they already are. In a very real sense, teachers deal with shit that no other profession has to face, especially the underworked/overpaid technocrats here on HN. Does that make them superior? No, but I think it earns them more deference than you're giving them here.