3 ms·

The MIT license also doesn't explicitly say it is irrevocable. It doesn't even say the license is perpetual. Does that mean that any software that is MIT licens

by thayne 4y ago

The MIT license also doesn't explicitly say it is irrevocable. It doesn't even say the license is perpetual. Does that mean that any software that is MIT licensed (or any of the many other licenses that doesn't have that wording) could be revoked at any time? That could have some pretty bad repercussions.

knaik94 4y ago
My understanding is the software released as MIT is pereptually MIT. Additional updates could change the license, but that won't retroactiely affect previous releases. The MIT license explicitly allows sublicensing. https://opensource.org/licenses/MIT https://opensource.org/licenses/MIT
- Macha 4y ago
  So does the OGL
  - trynewideas 4y ago
    The crux of the argument is OGL section 9's use of "authorized": > 9. Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License. And 1.1's rumored revocation of that authorization. And no matter how clear in common sense it might be that Hasbro shouldn't be able to do that, I don't think we're going to find out exactly how that falls apart until it's ruled upon in a court.
    - thayne 4y ago
      It isn't defined what it means for a version to be "authorized" though, which means it is ambiguous. And the FAQ for the original OGL makes it pretty clear that that intent was that once a version is authorized, it can't be un-authorized. As a layman, non-lawyer that seems like a pretty tough argument for WOTC.
sharpneli 4y ago
Does this mean that if I have released some MIT licensed, or contributed to a MIT licensed project, I can just call up a big company and tell them to pay me massive amounts of money now or stop using some product I have contributions in immediately? In reality obviously not. Whenever things like these happen it's interpreted in a way that the big company wins. For you not saying irrevocable doesn't mean it's revocable, but the opposite holds.
- thayne 4y ago
  Hmmm, I'm sure Hasbro/WOTC is using some MIT licensed software somewhere. What if the developers for some of that software threatened to revoke those licenses and sue WOTC?
  - Macha 4y ago
    They even distribute software in the form of MTG games on steam where one should be able to peruse the list of MIT software used if they comply with the license
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  TFA seems to say no, because of some "reliance principle" ?
  - jrumbut 4y ago
    But TFA says that they could prevent the release of new products, so would that mean you can't update your front end (even to fix a bug) until the offending code is removed?
    - BlueTemplar 4y ago
      My very layman's guess is that updates are fine, but new products are not. And courts are able to get technical assistance to find out a company that would try to sneak a new product as an update.
- 4y ago
rkagerer 4y ago
Your question is discussed here (and in some linked questions): https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/4012/are-licenses-irrevocable-by-default https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/4012/are-lice... The currently top-rated answer states: A non-exclusive copyright license (such as most FOSS licenses) can be revoked at any time only if there was no consideration involved. The United States Federal Circuit Court of Appeal took this on in Jacobsen v. Katzer[1] in 2008 and ruled that there is consideration exchanged in the use of FOSS by a licensee. This indicates that an FOSS license that's silent on revocation is likely revocable only for violation of it's conditions. But the answer may vary in other jurisdictions. Love to hear a lawyer chime in. EDIT: In the UK and EU it's also likely irrevocable once you've relied on it, eg. via principle of estoppel. The second voted answer mentions an interesting talk[2] by a panel of lawyers/experts and this starts to be discussed around the 8m 30s mark. ----- [1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17776182574171214893&hl=en&as_sdt=6&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=177761825741712... [2] https://archive.fosdem.org/2018/schedule/event/licenses_and_contracts_eu_us/ https://archive.fosdem.org/2018/schedule/event/licenses_and_...

by thayne 4y ago

knaik94 4y ago

My understanding is the software released as MIT is pereptually MIT. Additional updates could change the license, but that won't retroactiely affect previous releases. The MIT license explicitly allows sublicensing. https://opensource.org/licenses/MIT https://opensource.org/licenses/MIT

Macha 4y ago
So does the OGL
- trynewideas 4y ago
  The crux of the argument is OGL section 9's use of "authorized": > 9. Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License. And 1.1's rumored revocation of that authorization. And no matter how clear in common sense it might be that Hasbro shouldn't be able to do that, I don't think we're going to find out exactly how that falls apart until it's ruled upon in a court.
  - thayne 4y ago
    It isn't defined what it means for a version to be "authorized" though, which means it is ambiguous. And the FAQ for the original OGL makes it pretty clear that that intent was that once a version is authorized, it can't be un-authorized. As a layman, non-lawyer that seems like a pretty tough argument for WOTC.

sharpneli 4y ago

Does this mean that if I have released some MIT licensed, or contributed to a MIT licensed project, I can just call up a big company and tell them to pay me massive amounts of money now or stop using some product I have contributions in immediately? In reality obviously not. Whenever things like these happen it's interpreted in a way that the big company wins. For you not saying irrevocable doesn't mean it's revocable, but the opposite holds.

thayne 4y ago
Hmmm, I'm sure Hasbro/WOTC is using some MIT licensed software somewhere. What if the developers for some of that software threatened to revoke those licenses and sue WOTC?
- Macha 4y ago
  They even distribute software in the form of MTG games on steam where one should be able to peruse the list of MIT software used if they comply with the license
BlueTemplar 4y ago
TFA seems to say no, because of some "reliance principle" ?
- jrumbut 4y ago
  But TFA says that they could prevent the release of new products, so would that mean you can't update your front end (even to fix a bug) until the offending code is removed?
  - BlueTemplar 4y ago
    My very layman's guess is that updates are fine, but new products are not. And courts are able to get technical assistance to find out a company that would try to sneak a new product as an update.
4y ago

rkagerer 4y ago

Your question is discussed here (and in some linked questions): https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/4012/are-licenses-irrevocable-by-default https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/4012/are-lice... The currently top-rated answer states: A non-exclusive copyright license (such as most FOSS licenses) can be revoked at any time only if there was no consideration involved. The United States Federal Circuit Court of Appeal took this on in Jacobsen v. Katzer[1] in 2008 and ruled that there is consideration exchanged in the use of FOSS by a licensee. This indicates that an FOSS license that's silent on revocation is likely revocable only for violation of it's conditions. But the answer may vary in other jurisdictions. Love to hear a lawyer chime in. EDIT: In the UK and EU it's also likely irrevocable once you've relied on it, eg. via principle of estoppel. The second voted answer mentions an interesting talk[2] by a panel of lawyers/experts and this starts to be discussed around the 8m 30s mark. ----- [1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17776182574171214893&hl=en&as_sdt=6&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=177761825741712... [2] https://archive.fosdem.org/2018/schedule/event/licenses_and_contracts_eu_us/ https://archive.fosdem.org/2018/schedule/event/licenses_and_...