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I suppose that shelling civilians doesn’t equate with murder in your book? https://www.crisisgroup.org/content/conflict-ukraines-donbas-visual-explainer https:

I suppose that shelling civilians doesn’t equate with murder in your book? https://www.crisisgroup.org/content/conflict-ukraines-donbas-visual-explainer https://www.crisisgroup.org/content/conflict-ukraines-donbas... https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/ukraine https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/ukrai...

petre 4y ago
Every armed conflict is a threat to civilian lives. Had the Russians not invaded Ukraine in 2014, not long after failing to install a pro-Russian administration in Kiev, there would have been no armed conflict. Yes, minorities in Ukraine had rights and protections left over from the Soviet era that were revoked after the 2014 invasion. The radicalization of Ukrainian society happened precisely because of Russia's 2014 invasion and 2022 war. Any attempt on the part of Ukraine to join the EU would imply the reinstatement of minority rights and protections in a way that is compatible with EU legislation.
- blub 4y ago
  What do you mean by “failing to install a pro-Russian administration in Kiev”? The Maidan revolution (some call it coup) forced out the elected president which was perhaps pro-Russia but mostly just corrupt, as were most Ukrainian politicians. He at least had the right idea of having Ukraine act as a neutral country between two power blocs. As for minority rights, Ukraine doesn’t seem to be in a hurry to restore them, as repeatedly criticized by Hungary and Romania. Ukraine is becoming a very nationalist, illiberal state, the odds of it joining the EU are slim to none.
  - petre 4y ago
    Poisoning your opposition candidate with dioxyne, jaling his ally doesn't count, right? Let alone how elections were manipulated by Russia. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20120888 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20120888
    - blub 4y ago
      Your link doesn’t reference any poisonings and the event you’re referring to is old history at this point, I’m not sure why you’re bringing it up. I thought you were talking about Yanukovich in your original comment, since you kept mentioning 2014 and now you’ve jumped back to 2004.
- miguelazo 4y ago
  What 2014 invasion? The annexation of Crimea (which in historical terms has never really been part of Ukraine anyway) was certainly NOT an invasion. The referendum, which had some international observers, was overwhelmingly in favor of joining Russia. Russia took that step in response to Victoria Nuland and the US installing a puppet government.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > referendum, which had some international observers Please [1]. On a related note, Siberia wasn’t historically part of Russia and I think it’s fine time they separated [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referend... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Republic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Republic
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> suppose that shelling civilians doesn’t equate with murder in your book? No, war = murder hasn’t been a hot take for millennia, but I appreciate your throwing in the HRW link claiming “Russia-backed armed groups in Donetska and Luhanska regions continued to torture, arbitrarily detain, and forcibly disappear civilians” as purported evidence of Ukraine’s war crimes [1]. [1] https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/ukraine https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/ukrai...
- miguelazo 4y ago
  I’m not saying that the locals are innocent. They have done plenty of bad things, that’s usually how insurgencies go. The rest of that article clearly implicated the national government in worse, especially in terms of scale.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > not saying that the locals are innocent I will. This is Russia stirring shit. > rest of that article clearly implicated the national government in worse Where? Every paragraph that implicates Kyiv cites both sides. I suppose we’ll also ignore who gunned down MH17 with Kremlin-supplied weaponry?

petre 4y ago

Every armed conflict is a threat to civilian lives. Had the Russians not invaded Ukraine in 2014, not long after failing to install a pro-Russian administration in Kiev, there would have been no armed conflict. Yes, minorities in Ukraine had rights and protections left over from the Soviet era that were revoked after the 2014 invasion. The radicalization of Ukrainian society happened precisely because of Russia's 2014 invasion and 2022 war. Any attempt on the part of Ukraine to join the EU would imply the reinstatement of minority rights and protections in a way that is compatible with EU legislation.

blub 4y ago
What do you mean by “failing to install a pro-Russian administration in Kiev”? The Maidan revolution (some call it coup) forced out the elected president which was perhaps pro-Russia but mostly just corrupt, as were most Ukrainian politicians. He at least had the right idea of having Ukraine act as a neutral country between two power blocs. As for minority rights, Ukraine doesn’t seem to be in a hurry to restore them, as repeatedly criticized by Hungary and Romania. Ukraine is becoming a very nationalist, illiberal state, the odds of it joining the EU are slim to none.
- petre 4y ago
  Poisoning your opposition candidate with dioxyne, jaling his ally doesn't count, right? Let alone how elections were manipulated by Russia. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20120888 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20120888
  - blub 4y ago
    Your link doesn’t reference any poisonings and the event you’re referring to is old history at this point, I’m not sure why you’re bringing it up. I thought you were talking about Yanukovich in your original comment, since you kept mentioning 2014 and now you’ve jumped back to 2004.
miguelazo 4y ago
What 2014 invasion? The annexation of Crimea (which in historical terms has never really been part of Ukraine anyway) was certainly NOT an invasion. The referendum, which had some international observers, was overwhelmingly in favor of joining Russia. Russia took that step in response to Victoria Nuland and the US installing a puppet government.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > referendum, which had some international observers Please [1]. On a related note, Siberia wasn’t historically part of Russia and I think it’s fine time they separated [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referend... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Republic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Republic

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> suppose that shelling civilians doesn’t equate with murder in your book? No, war = murder hasn’t been a hot take for millennia, but I appreciate your throwing in the HRW link claiming “Russia-backed armed groups in Donetska and Luhanska regions continued to torture, arbitrarily detain, and forcibly disappear civilians” as purported evidence of Ukraine’s war crimes [1]. [1] https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/ukraine https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/ukrai...

miguelazo 4y ago
I’m not saying that the locals are innocent. They have done plenty of bad things, that’s usually how insurgencies go. The rest of that article clearly implicated the national government in worse, especially in terms of scale.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > not saying that the locals are innocent I will. This is Russia stirring shit. > rest of that article clearly implicated the national government in worse Where? Every paragraph that implicates Kyiv cites both sides. I suppose we’ll also ignore who gunned down MH17 with Kremlin-supplied weaponry?