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The D-Bus focus is understandable if one recalls some of the early discussions on Wayland. Namely that all sorts of stuff were to be relegated to D-Bus interfac

by p_l 4y ago

The D-Bus focus is understandable if one recalls some of the early discussions on Wayland. Namely that all sorts of stuff were to be relegated to D-Bus interfaces instead of protocol extensions. Essentially, GNOME project is going Wayland purist way.

jchw 4y ago
I am not aware. I was on NVIDIA for a long time, so Wayland was a thing that I looked at from a great distance. However, I can't recall that point ever really coming up specifically. Deciding what should be a standard Wayland protocol has a committee today though. And I understand that an optional protocol existing does not imply that all Wayland clients and servers must implement them, but things like idle-inhibit were added because it addresses a specific problem, and I think it's a real shame that the most popular toolkit on Linux will probably not get support for it. I'm not trying to slander GNOME developers here, and they have no incentive to care about people's opinions who have nothing to do with them, but if they care a lot about their reputation as being a bully in the ecosystem, well, this is exactly the kind of thing that leads to this problem.
- QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
  That "reputation" is complete nonsense. Outside of HN (and a few other places with low-quality moderation) I don't see anyone trying to push that "reputation" as a narrative. GNOME has no other option but to dismiss and ignore those claims. I mean it's literally "you're bullying me because you don't do what I'm demanding you to do right when I want you to do it."
  - traverseda 4y ago
    The reputation is a real thing and it's why the only people who are choosing to use GTK for new projects are people who are already pretty deep into the gnome ecosystem (they've probably been to at least on gnome conference). You can see this kind of effect by looking at toolkit preferences in things like the stack overflow surveys.
    - QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
      No, this particular "reputation" you're referring to is a lie and a fabrication based on nothing, in order to push a narrative. I mean you literally just walked it back right now, in literally the same sentence. The people choosing GTK are choosing to do that, they're not being bullied by anybody. I don't think anyone is developing anything for the express purpose of trying to "win" a stack overflow survey.
      - traverseda 4y ago
        >the people choosing GTK are choosing to do that, They are, presumably, not the people that Gnome are bullying. But I think we're past the point where you can I can have a reasonable conversation.
        QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
        We could never have a fruitful conversation if all you were trying to do was trash talk some people. I won't engage you there. Once you abandon the idea that you need to tear other people down to make your point then you'll find our conversation will improve instantly.
    - QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
      I was curious so I looked at the most recent stack overflow surveys that mention GTK. They actually say you're wrong. https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#section-most-popular-technologies-other-frameworks-and-libraries https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#section-most-popular-t... https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#section-most-loved-dreaded-and-wanted-other-frameworks-and-libraries https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#section-most-loved-dre... GTK has lower usage than Qt and Electron, but it's actually few percent higher on the "most loved" category than Qt and Electron. However all of them are below 50% loved. The percent GTK is above them is probably not enough to be important. And that's exactly what I'd expect: all these desktop toolkits have issues and are disliked. Electron and Qt are cross-platform so of course they would have higher usage than GTK, which has only ever really been popular on Linux. And none of it matters anyway. .NET wins it all by a large margin due to the popularity of Windows and the only other big GUI frameworks on there are Flutter and React Native. I'm honestly surprised GTK is even on the list at all, it wasn't there in previous years. I expected the list to be totally dominated by web frameworks and Python frameworks like it was before. This is kind of along the lines of what I've been trying to communicate to you. Complaining about these minor issues and playing the blame game between open source projects is pointless. Microsoft, Facebook and Google are the big boys in town, that's not gonna change by GNOME fixing some random low-priority bug.

by p_l 4y ago

jchw 4y ago

I am not aware. I was on NVIDIA for a long time, so Wayland was a thing that I looked at from a great distance. However, I can't recall that point ever really coming up specifically. Deciding what should be a standard Wayland protocol has a committee today though. And I understand that an optional protocol existing does not imply that all Wayland clients and servers must implement them, but things like idle-inhibit were added because it addresses a specific problem, and I think it's a real shame that the most popular toolkit on Linux will probably not get support for it. I'm not trying to slander GNOME developers here, and they have no incentive to care about people's opinions who have nothing to do with them, but if they care a lot about their reputation as being a bully in the ecosystem, well, this is exactly the kind of thing that leads to this problem.

QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
That "reputation" is complete nonsense. Outside of HN (and a few other places with low-quality moderation) I don't see anyone trying to push that "reputation" as a narrative. GNOME has no other option but to dismiss and ignore those claims. I mean it's literally "you're bullying me because you don't do what I'm demanding you to do right when I want you to do it."
- traverseda 4y ago
  The reputation is a real thing and it's why the only people who are choosing to use GTK for new projects are people who are already pretty deep into the gnome ecosystem (they've probably been to at least on gnome conference). You can see this kind of effect by looking at toolkit preferences in things like the stack overflow surveys.
  - QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
    No, this particular "reputation" you're referring to is a lie and a fabrication based on nothing, in order to push a narrative. I mean you literally just walked it back right now, in literally the same sentence. The people choosing GTK are choosing to do that, they're not being bullied by anybody. I don't think anyone is developing anything for the express purpose of trying to "win" a stack overflow survey.
    - traverseda 4y ago
      >the people choosing GTK are choosing to do that, They are, presumably, not the people that Gnome are bullying. But I think we're past the point where you can I can have a reasonable conversation.
      - QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
        We could never have a fruitful conversation if all you were trying to do was trash talk some people. I won't engage you there. Once you abandon the idea that you need to tear other people down to make your point then you'll find our conversation will improve instantly.
  - QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
    I was curious so I looked at the most recent stack overflow surveys that mention GTK. They actually say you're wrong. https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#section-most-popular-technologies-other-frameworks-and-libraries https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#section-most-popular-t... https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#section-most-loved-dreaded-and-wanted-other-frameworks-and-libraries https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#section-most-loved-dre... GTK has lower usage than Qt and Electron, but it's actually few percent higher on the "most loved" category than Qt and Electron. However all of them are below 50% loved. The percent GTK is above them is probably not enough to be important. And that's exactly what I'd expect: all these desktop toolkits have issues and are disliked. Electron and Qt are cross-platform so of course they would have higher usage than GTK, which has only ever really been popular on Linux. And none of it matters anyway. .NET wins it all by a large margin due to the popularity of Windows and the only other big GUI frameworks on there are Flutter and React Native. I'm honestly surprised GTK is even on the list at all, it wasn't there in previous years. I expected the list to be totally dominated by web frameworks and Python frameworks like it was before. This is kind of along the lines of what I've been trying to communicate to you. Complaining about these minor issues and playing the blame game between open source projects is pointless. Microsoft, Facebook and Google are the big boys in town, that's not gonna change by GNOME fixing some random low-priority bug.