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Here is what we were told repeatedly and constantly throughout middle and high school (mid to late 90s): * You should go to college. * You should do what you

by pavon 4y ago

Here is what we were told repeatedly and constantly throughout middle and high school (mid to late 90s): * You should go to college. * You should do what you love. * Sure some jobs pay more that others, but that doesn't matter if you are doing what you love. What was completely left out of the discussion was that some degrees won't actually enable you to do what you love. They'll just load you with tons of debt, making it harder to even get by let alone do what you love as a side gig. I never once heard a guidance councilor or other adult tell that to me or my peers. The "it is rare to get that sort of job" speech was reserved for people who wanted to play sports or be rock-stars, not those thinking about an academic degree. Maybe it was because I was from an underprivileged community, and any students who showed a desire to go to college were encouraged, not stifled.

JamesBarney 4y ago
Yeah the "you could be an archeologist or a historian" was such obvious bullshit that I can't believe any adult could say this with a straight face." They always listed the jobs you could have with a degree instead of the jobs you would have with a degree. My wife got a GIS degree. They told her about all the map making jobs. They didn't say 95% of these jobs were oil and gas.
- crazygringo 4y ago
  I'm not really sure what you're talking about... a friend of mine studied archaeology in college and wound up starting her career in the curation department of a major museum. Another studied history and wound up becoming a tenure-track history professor. Now granted they both worked crazy hard in school, but the idea that it's "obvious bullshit" isn't true at all. Archaeologists and historians are real jobs that exist. I say that with a straight face. I'm not saying that it's easy to become either, and you're definitely not going to become rich doing either of them, but they're certainly attainable if you're truly driven and love that kind of work. They're not get-lucky fantasies like NBA star or celebrity influencer.
  - JamesBarney 4y ago
    There are 500 NBA players, and another 500 minor league players and 5000 practicing archaeologists. So it's not too far off. I have 1 friends who is tenure track (stem which is significantly easier) but 14-15 who got PhDs weren't able to find tenure track position. But two friend started an internationally acclaimed bands. And another who is an internationally published author. So sure these jobs exist but archaeologist and historian are probably closer to rock star or NBA player than they are accountant or developer.
    - acdha 4y ago
      Strong second on this point. It was especially rough on couples since you need to find two jobs and deal with things like what happens if your tenure track job is in a field/area which assumes everyone has family wealth (you’ll see - in 2022 - faculty jobs listed in NYC paying $40k!). Don’t forget there’s often a narrow window: too many years out of your Ph.D program and it gets harder since you’re assumed to be stale/flawed even if the true constraint on the job market was budget cuts. I’m reminded of a friend who moved - with no prior experience living outside of the U.S. - to Tasmania because that’s the one place in the world where their partner could get a permanent job when they were on the market. That’s worked out well for their family but it’s nothing like the way a software developer can be flexible.
    - crazygringo 4y ago
      Except there's orders of magnitude more competition for those NBA players though, than there is for archaeology (or historian). Especially when you realize how mind-numberingly tedious it mostly is, so much cataloguing seemingly endless shards... (Or endless 16th-century documents, if you're a historian.) But if you've really got your heart set on archaeology/history, they're not fantasies. They're just extremely niche. You're right that the parallel isn't "developer", it's more like "database engine developer". Albeit much much lower pay, in most cases. ;)
      - JamesBarney 4y ago
        Conditional on playing college ball, there is maybe 1 order of magnitude difference in terms of competition. If you play in college there's a 1.2% chance you play in the NBA. And probably a 10-15% chance of working as an archaeologist condition on getting a degree same as getting a tenure track professorship conditioned on getting a PhD in History. One of the biggest differences though, is you figure out whether or not you're getting into the NBA at aged 20, after going to school on an athletic scholarship. You figure out you're not going to get tenure at 32 after finishing up your 3rd post doc, with 250k in student loans.
skissane 4y ago
> They'll just load you with tons of debt, making it harder to even get by let alone do what you love as a side gig That seems to be a somewhat US-specific problem. In many other countries, university education is much more affordable, in some cases even entirely free. In my country (Australia), the government pays two-thirds of the tuition cost of most undergraduate degrees, and will lend you the remaining third - while that debt is still a burden for some, it is nowhere near as bad as the US. Other countries (such as France or Scotland), the government pays 100% of tuition

by pavon 4y ago

JamesBarney 4y ago

Yeah the "you could be an archeologist or a historian" was such obvious bullshit that I can't believe any adult could say this with a straight face." They always listed the jobs you could have with a degree instead of the jobs you would have with a degree. My wife got a GIS degree. They told her about all the map making jobs. They didn't say 95% of these jobs were oil and gas.

crazygringo 4y ago
I'm not really sure what you're talking about... a friend of mine studied archaeology in college and wound up starting her career in the curation department of a major museum. Another studied history and wound up becoming a tenure-track history professor. Now granted they both worked crazy hard in school, but the idea that it's "obvious bullshit" isn't true at all. Archaeologists and historians are real jobs that exist. I say that with a straight face. I'm not saying that it's easy to become either, and you're definitely not going to become rich doing either of them, but they're certainly attainable if you're truly driven and love that kind of work. They're not get-lucky fantasies like NBA star or celebrity influencer.
- JamesBarney 4y ago
  There are 500 NBA players, and another 500 minor league players and 5000 practicing archaeologists. So it's not too far off. I have 1 friends who is tenure track (stem which is significantly easier) but 14-15 who got PhDs weren't able to find tenure track position. But two friend started an internationally acclaimed bands. And another who is an internationally published author. So sure these jobs exist but archaeologist and historian are probably closer to rock star or NBA player than they are accountant or developer.
  - acdha 4y ago
    Strong second on this point. It was especially rough on couples since you need to find two jobs and deal with things like what happens if your tenure track job is in a field/area which assumes everyone has family wealth (you’ll see - in 2022 - faculty jobs listed in NYC paying $40k!). Don’t forget there’s often a narrow window: too many years out of your Ph.D program and it gets harder since you’re assumed to be stale/flawed even if the true constraint on the job market was budget cuts. I’m reminded of a friend who moved - with no prior experience living outside of the U.S. - to Tasmania because that’s the one place in the world where their partner could get a permanent job when they were on the market. That’s worked out well for their family but it’s nothing like the way a software developer can be flexible.
  - crazygringo 4y ago
    Except there's orders of magnitude more competition for those NBA players though, than there is for archaeology (or historian). Especially when you realize how mind-numberingly tedious it mostly is, so much cataloguing seemingly endless shards... (Or endless 16th-century documents, if you're a historian.) But if you've really got your heart set on archaeology/history, they're not fantasies. They're just extremely niche. You're right that the parallel isn't "developer", it's more like "database engine developer". Albeit much much lower pay, in most cases. ;)
    - JamesBarney 4y ago
      Conditional on playing college ball, there is maybe 1 order of magnitude difference in terms of competition. If you play in college there's a 1.2% chance you play in the NBA. And probably a 10-15% chance of working as an archaeologist condition on getting a degree same as getting a tenure track professorship conditioned on getting a PhD in History. One of the biggest differences though, is you figure out whether or not you're getting into the NBA at aged 20, after going to school on an athletic scholarship. You figure out you're not going to get tenure at 32 after finishing up your 3rd post doc, with 250k in student loans.

skissane 4y ago

> They'll just load you with tons of debt, making it harder to even get by let alone do what you love as a side gig That seems to be a somewhat US-specific problem. In many other countries, university education is much more affordable, in some cases even entirely free. In my country (Australia), the government pays two-thirds of the tuition cost of most undergraduate degrees, and will lend you the remaining third - while that debt is still a burden for some, it is nowhere near as bad as the US. Other countries (such as France or Scotland), the government pays 100% of tuition