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>> We're probably just nit-picking over definitions but a career No, that's fair. Like "carpenter" and "programmer" are both very broad professions of course.
by Avshalom 4y ago
>> We're probably just nit-picking over definitions but a career
No, that's fair. Like "carpenter" and "programmer" are both very broad professions of course. I think there's something about the way various industries get hit by down turns more or less visibly (like when construction goes down it feels like it's everybody, and so every framer, every concrete layer) that creates an (often false to be sure) sense of narrowness.
But also Plumber, Electrician, Carpenter, etc. are very broad trades and even though articles get written using those words because everyone knows what they do, the articles are often really talking about the lack of elevator technicians, crane operators, industrial HVAC, PLC programmers, train conductors, air traffic controllers those more niche trades. A lot of machine operators end up so niche that their current company is the only one in a state that could employ them. My sister makes M&Ms, other than company policies about like sanitation she'd be no better than a new hire on the Twix line.
- chx 4y ago> the lack of elevator technicians, crane operators, industrial HVAC, PLC programmers, train conductors, air traffic controllers Blame Reagan. Seriously. I am not joking. Blame Reagan. These need to be union jobs. These used to be union jobs. For a more nuanced history read https://wwnorton.com/books/Invisible-Hands/ https://wwnorton.com/books/Invisible-Hands/
- Karrot_Kream 4y agoIs the argument here that unions are needed to guarantee minimum pay and benefits for these highly specialized jobs so that they feel safe enough to specialize? Wouldn't that depress effective wages for these techs and make the jobs as appealing as less skilled labor?
- chx 4y agoI am unable to follow your logic from the first sentence to the second please elaborate.
- Karrot_Kream 4y agoThe way you guarantee job stability would probably be to pay union members a salary even when they're temporarily not needed right? Then you pay this salary out using union dues. Union dues end up garnishing take-home wages which removes the incentive to specialize. ^ That was how I was imagining it. Am I wrong in thinking this way? Or is the argument that the urge to specialize is independent of wage?
- chx 4y agoA union negotiates salaries and work conditions both. Even with union dues your salary will be higher and work conditions so much better. Let's look at ATC as an example: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/air-traffic-controllers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/a... > Their work can be stressful because maximum concentration is required at all times. Night, weekend, and rotating shifts are common. Well, maybe there could be better agreements than rotating shifts on a very stressful job, don't you think so?
- Karrot_Kream 4y agoI'm not talking about a generic "unions are good" argument. I know why unions exist, the history behind them throughout much of the West, their ties to worker parties and socialism etc. I'm specifically wondering what about unionizing (or in this case, re-unionizing) makes it more palatable for these highly specialized roles to exist. Is your argument then that working conditions for folks like HVAC techs are poor enough that unions are necessary to negotiate for better working conditions before people want to become HVAC techs? Generally, the more specialized labor is, the higher wage and benefits they can demand in a capitalist labor market. Supply and demand. For less skilled labor like general electricians I can understand the role of the union in negotiating for wages, benefits, and safety standards. For highly skilled labor like an HVAC tech, I don't see it.
- chx 4y agoYou seriously want me to dig up the stories on how everyone is mistreated? I already did for ATC. You can do your research for the rest. I am reasonable sure every worker in the US is mistreated.
- actionfromafar 4y agoSome stuff still needs to be done, by code (which should be enforced) or by that people want basic services like electricity to actually exist.
- Karrot_Kream 4y agoI'm not saying the trades should be unregulated. I think OSHA is an almost unparalleled good. I've just generally thought of the benefits of unionization for skilled trades to lie in the educational and reputational benefits of the union rather than the security aspect of one. Unions for unskilled labor would work differently. My thought, at least.