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We cannot afford to ransack places like Chile to extract lithium for 'electric vehicles', which plumb new depths of pollution and third world degredation. The

We cannot afford to ransack places like Chile to extract lithium for 'electric vehicles', which plumb new depths of pollution and third world degredation. The extraction of rare earth minerals for our electronically surveilled and controlled future comes at a terrible cost, as Siddharth Kara's new book "Cobalt Red: How The Blood of The Congo Powers Our Lives" outlines in excruciating detail. https://read.macmillan.com/lp/cobalt-red/ https://read.macmillan.com/lp/cobalt-red/ No one wins in this race to the bottom. If you are contemplating a BEV I would urge you to read up on just how ecologically appalling the batteries are for our planet and people.

ok_dad 4y ago
Oil ain't a picnic either, so what's the answer?
- elefantastisch 4y ago
  Grid-powered public transit replacing 80% of trips by personal vehicle.
  - olivermarks 4y ago
    This is the sort of elitist fantasy nonsense promoted by the WEF that completely disrespects the average person and family.
    - ok_dad 4y ago
      European families seem to do OK using public transit.
      - ohuf 4y ago
        ...only in big cities. Rural areas including the suburbs of the 100k's still depend heavily on individual transport...
    - someNameIG 4y ago
      How is public transport elitist? If anything it's the opposite.
  - mesarvagya 4y ago
    This. Americans are too used to owning a personal car and driving it even though short trips can be replaced by public transit. I agree US is too big to be covered by public transit, but if we want to win the climate war, US has to cover all its states and make public transit seamless. Once this goal is complete, discourage owning of personal vehicle. Also a picture comparing car vs bus [1]. Now compare the green house emission between two. [1] https://www.boredpanda.com/space-required-to-transport-60-people/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic https://www.boredpanda.com/space-required-to-transport-60-pe...
gnopgnip 4y ago
Lithium isn't a rare earth mineral or metal, it is the 33rd most common element on earth. There is a substantial cost to doing nothing and continuing the status quo
- olivermarks 4y ago
  There is a very substantial cost to destroying the planet chasing after a toxic, highly inefficient and polluting alternative to ICE vehicles. Hybrid vehicles are clearly the answer. Tire pollution is a far more serious problem than tailpipe emissions. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/14/electric-cost-lithium-mining-decarbonasation-salt-flats-chile https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/14/electr... This scene is absolute madness https://twitter.com/siddharthkara/status/1611042107871080449 https://twitter.com/siddharthkara/status/1611042107871080449
  - wilg 4y ago
    > Tire pollution is a far more serious problem than tailpipe emissions. What an extraordinary claim.
    - olivermarks 4y ago
      Not a claim, a fact. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyre... https://earth.org/tyre-pollution/ https://earth.org/tyre-pollution/ Because BEVs are much heavier than ICE vehicles and have very different torque characteristics they produce significantly more pollution. Much of the dirt poluttion attributed to diesel is actually tire particulates.
      - wilg 4y ago
        Your claim is that tire pollution is a more serious problem than exhaust. These articles do not support this claim. They state that more particles come off tires than exhaust. That's not the same thing. Does tire pollution contribute to global warming as much as fossil fuel exhaust? I haven't seen anything to indicate that. I'd like to see a number on the difference in particulate production from tires on EVs – I suspect it's only about 20% more.
FatActor 4y ago
I agree with your sentiment and also understand that this won't stop the world's thirst for a commodity (see: dole bananas, hersey chocolate, all mined gemstones, and dinosaur juice). If we really are a global economy I would like to see proactive protections for these countries (like fair trade agreements) that guarantee environmental regulations are imposed and observed and that workers are fairly compensated and not exploited ... i actually think that might be possible if the the US and EU lead and lithium-block operations from more authoritarian companies with similar interests like china who have already taken over large parts of africa's mining operations through truly nefarious (IMHO) belt and road investment.
- olivermarks 4y ago
  It's over. The Chinese control the world's rare earth minerals. Along with India they also produce the vast majority of global pollution, while the western world self destructs in an orgy of self flagellation over various junk science climate dramas. https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/94-of-world-s-100-most-polluted-cities-are-in-india-china-pakistan-121112300020_1.html#:~:text=In%202020%2C%20India%20had%2046,polluted%20cities%20are%20in%20India https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/94-o....

ok_dad 4y ago

Oil ain't a picnic either, so what's the answer?

elefantastisch 4y ago
Grid-powered public transit replacing 80% of trips by personal vehicle.
- olivermarks 4y ago
  This is the sort of elitist fantasy nonsense promoted by the WEF that completely disrespects the average person and family.
  - ok_dad 4y ago
    European families seem to do OK using public transit.
    - ohuf 4y ago
      ...only in big cities. Rural areas including the suburbs of the 100k's still depend heavily on individual transport...
  - someNameIG 4y ago
    How is public transport elitist? If anything it's the opposite.
- mesarvagya 4y ago
  This. Americans are too used to owning a personal car and driving it even though short trips can be replaced by public transit. I agree US is too big to be covered by public transit, but if we want to win the climate war, US has to cover all its states and make public transit seamless. Once this goal is complete, discourage owning of personal vehicle. Also a picture comparing car vs bus [1]. Now compare the green house emission between two. [1] https://www.boredpanda.com/space-required-to-transport-60-people/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic https://www.boredpanda.com/space-required-to-transport-60-pe...

gnopgnip 4y ago

Lithium isn't a rare earth mineral or metal, it is the 33rd most common element on earth. There is a substantial cost to doing nothing and continuing the status quo

olivermarks 4y ago
There is a very substantial cost to destroying the planet chasing after a toxic, highly inefficient and polluting alternative to ICE vehicles. Hybrid vehicles are clearly the answer. Tire pollution is a far more serious problem than tailpipe emissions. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/14/electric-cost-lithium-mining-decarbonasation-salt-flats-chile https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/14/electr... This scene is absolute madness https://twitter.com/siddharthkara/status/1611042107871080449 https://twitter.com/siddharthkara/status/1611042107871080449
- wilg 4y ago
  > Tire pollution is a far more serious problem than tailpipe emissions. What an extraordinary claim.
  - olivermarks 4y ago
    Not a claim, a fact. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyre... https://earth.org/tyre-pollution/ https://earth.org/tyre-pollution/ Because BEVs are much heavier than ICE vehicles and have very different torque characteristics they produce significantly more pollution. Much of the dirt poluttion attributed to diesel is actually tire particulates.
    - wilg 4y ago
      Your claim is that tire pollution is a more serious problem than exhaust. These articles do not support this claim. They state that more particles come off tires than exhaust. That's not the same thing. Does tire pollution contribute to global warming as much as fossil fuel exhaust? I haven't seen anything to indicate that. I'd like to see a number on the difference in particulate production from tires on EVs – I suspect it's only about 20% more.

FatActor 4y ago

I agree with your sentiment and also understand that this won't stop the world's thirst for a commodity (see: dole bananas, hersey chocolate, all mined gemstones, and dinosaur juice). If we really are a global economy I would like to see proactive protections for these countries (like fair trade agreements) that guarantee environmental regulations are imposed and observed and that workers are fairly compensated and not exploited ... i actually think that might be possible if the the US and EU lead and lithium-block operations from more authoritarian companies with similar interests like china who have already taken over large parts of africa's mining operations through truly nefarious (IMHO) belt and road investment.

olivermarks 4y ago
It's over. The Chinese control the world's rare earth minerals. Along with India they also produce the vast majority of global pollution, while the western world self destructs in an orgy of self flagellation over various junk science climate dramas. https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/94-of-world-s-100-most-polluted-cities-are-in-india-china-pakistan-121112300020_1.html#:~:text=In%202020%2C%20India%20had%2046,polluted%20cities%20are%20in%20India https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/94-o....