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Alexis, you did great. Cool, calm, collected, and sharp. You did a great job advocating what most of us here understand and champion. But here is the problem I

by edw519 15y ago

Alexis, you did great. Cool, calm, collected, and sharp. You did a great job advocating what most of us here understand and champion. But here is the problem I see with this whole SOPA debate... I didn't see anything that would help my Uncle Art understand what this is all about in his language and why he should care. This is what he sees: - There is a bill in congress. - It's to stop people from stealing other peoples' stuff. - There are strong opinions on both sides. - The old companies I love (movies, etc.) support it. - The Chamber of Commerce (mother, apple pie) supports it. - This young guy was very articulate; I like him. - I don't understand the Constitutional argument. - He says this new stuff wouldn't have happened. So what? - What is reddit? - I thought Facebook was for kids. - Who is Louie CK? I really don't understand what he did. - Why is the internet so afraid of ethical behavior? There is another comment in this thread by squeee which is the first one I read that my Uncle Art would understand, something like, "If someone shoplifts in your store, this bill allows the government to shut down your store." I could just picture my uncle raising holy hell if that ever happened. I read the comments in this thread before I watched the video (like I usually do), so I was waiting for Alexis to say something like squeee said. Something that would get the great mass of those who don't understand the argument to take notice and take action. Alexis, keep up the good fight. And find a way to get our aunts, uncles, and grandparents to "get it". I believe that will be the turning point of the battle.

sc00ter 15y ago
> "If someone shoplifts in your store, this bill allows the government to shut down your store." I like the analogy, but it's off by a mark. "If someone leaves stolen goods in your store, this bill allows the government to shut down your store." would be a closer match, but misses a nuance. "If someone post a notice advertising stolen goods on the community noticeboard in your store, this bill allows the government to shut down your store." would be even closer, but is a little harder to grok.
- joshklein 15y ago
  The best I could come up with is: "It's like if you were a landlord renting one apartment in a large building to someone you thought was a guitar teacher giving private lessons, but he turned out to be selling stolen jewelry; your whole apartment complex could be shut down by the government before the trial of your tenant took place, even if you evicted the tenant as soon as you discovered criminality."
- peterb 15y ago
  "If anyone posted a classified ad for stolen goods in your local newspaper, this bill allows the government to shut down the newspaper."
  - coverband 15y ago
    I think this is the best fitting analogy so far... You can extend it to further talk about content owners, publishers, user-generated content, paid subscribers and free readers, etc. Newspapers also deal with existing regulations that address the same type of issues, such as first amendment rights vs. libel laws and the public's right to know vs. need for privacy.
  - thegb05 15y ago
    Here's one I just thought of. Maybe not entirely serious: Prostitution is illegal in most states. SOPA is nearly equivalent to shutting down a bar because somebody went into the bathroom and scrawled "For a good time, call XXX-XXXX" on the wall.
dpapathanasiou 15y ago
Why is the internet so afraid of ethical behavior? This is the problem with how these bills are named. SOPA stands for "Stop Piracy Online Act". I.e., how can you be against something that stops theft? It would have a completely different mainstream reaction if it were called the "Censor the Internet Act" or "Stop Free Speech Online Act".
Timothee 15y ago
To be fair to Alexis, this was for BloombergTV so I think his emphasis on the creation of wealth (or lack thereof) and the economic impact of SOPA was appropriate. It's true indeed that this wouldn't be helpful for your Uncle Art.
- kn0thing 15y ago
  I was trying to hit my audience of bankers, daytraders, and wealthy people, but I'm very mindful of these Uncle Arts, because in the end they're the ones who will win the day: http://navantigroup.com/content/world-changing-power-reasonable http://navantigroup.com/content/world-changing-power-reasona...
  - geogra4 15y ago
    I think you did a very good job shoehorning the key phrases 'wealth creation', 'big government' and 'private sector' into your appearance so that you could get the bloomberg audience on your side. Nicely done.
    - kn0thing 15y ago
      Thanks. Not my usual crowd, but we've certainly got common ground here.
dominostars 15y ago
Agreed. The shoplifting analogy isn't even necessary, just an accurate depiction of what is so scary: "If just one user uploads copyright material to youtube, SOPA allows the government to shut down all of youtube. Even if youtube removes the material as quickly as possible."
- klinquist 15y ago
  This is similar to how I described it to my relatives as well. They know enough about Facebook to understand - I told them that if I took a picture of a painting in a gallery and posted it on my facebook wall, the government could take down all of facebook.
jlank 15y ago
Another analogy: "If someone gets pulled over for speeding in their Ford Mustang, Ford is liable for their illegal behavior"
- klinquist 15y ago
  "The government could immediately shut down all Mustangs on the road"
  - pkghost 15y ago
    Terrorists meet in your backyard, government takes your house.
  - jarin 15y ago
    "Chevy sends an email to the government and all Mustangs are immediately shut down."
DevX101 15y ago
Despite my differences with much of the Republican party platform, one thing that they are damn good at and I respect them for is an ability to communicate with their target base. Where's there's a hot topic issue, the Republicans will come out in lockstep with voices on the same wavelength. They use clear and simple language with a single antagonist. In the really big battles they even coin phrases like 'Obamacare', 'Death tax', & 'energy exploration', that succinctly convey their point of view. Each of those phrases will be used repeatedly by every Republican on TV, until their opponents (Democrats) even adopt the same language they've invented. This why I like that 'shoplifter in the store' analogy. Its pretty simple and relatable to just about anyone. On the topic of language though, the opponents of SOPA should be creating their own word/phrase. If we refer to SOPA as 'online piracy', then we've already conceded more ground that we need to.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- TobiasCassell 15y ago
  "Despite my differences with much of the Republican party platform, one thing that they are damn good at and I respect them for is an ability to communicate with their target base." Yes- they are so good at this, its a great lesson in conveying with power.. George Lakoff beautifully explains how they do this in his book- "Don't Think of an Elephant!: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate".. You also mention they get the other political parties to use "their" terminology as well, George Lakoff goes through this in the book as well. I found a ton of communication lessons in the book, and I dont think the tone will alienate anyone, even though its clear the author doesn't lean too far to the right. A great book to read if anyone is at all interested in how the Right owns the game...
- asnyder 15y ago
  It doesn't hurt that they have a 24hr propaganda network dedicated to repeating these catch phrases and sound bites over and over again.
  - sunir 15y ago
credo 15y ago
Here is what Alexis seemed to be saying in the interview. - SOPA is bad for websites that rely on user-generated-content (and entrepreneurs like him) - We (i.e. tech community) intimidated GoDaddy and forced them to back away from their support for SOPA - One guy made a million dollars by requesting donations on PayPal instead of demanding payments from all users. This is a great example of innovation. The private sector should innovate like this guy (i.e. they should rely on business models that request payments, not require payments) I realize that SOPA has zero support on HN and that my criticism of Alexis' interview-responses won't be popular. However, imo, a better approach to win public support would be to come up with specific solutions for the copyright problem and also acknowledge that copyright holders do have some legitimate concerns.
- tptacek 15y ago
  SOPA may have zero support on HN (it's not a well-written law) but the MPAA and RIAA have more support than you might assume.
- kuahyeow 15y ago
  `come up with specific solutions for the copyright problem and also acknowledge that copyright holders do have some legitimate concerns` As Alexis said that's a problem for their industry. It's quite a false flag to say that the tech sites need to come up with a solution. Additionally, DMCA is already one solution.
- kn0thing 15y ago
  I don't want karma, I want useful criticism. We need to win public support. Granted, BloombergTV is far from mainstream, but we're taking babysteps. We aren't for piracy, we're just aware of how futile trying to legislate against it is. I think we can make a case for this that articulates the genuine problem and still resonates with the average American.
- o2sd 15y ago
  Noam Chomsky once noted that the problem of the soundbite age is that some questions don't have simple answers that fit inside 30 seconds or 2 minutes. The main problem with SOPA is that it is not possible to solve a market problem with legislation. Copyright infringement is a market problem, and markets are a lot more effective in delivering solutions than Governments. Consequently, SOPA will utterly fail to prevent copyright infringement, resulting in even MORE draconian laws sometime in the future. Specific to the problem of music and film is that these markets are highly regulated oligopolies that use their market power to engage in price fixing. Unlike efficient markets, in which there are a range of different prices, the music and film markets only have two prices: Idiotically expensive and free (illegal). Personally, I would LOVE to pay $1 per episode to watch my favourite HBO series at a time, and in a place of my own choosing. Sadly I cannot. Hence, I either don't watch it at all, or I obtain it by 'other' means. Monopolies/oligopolies only offer one price, and they are free to gouge their customers as long as they can prevent any competition in the market. In other words, SOPA is NOT about preventing piracy (because that is a hopeless cause, much like the war on drugs), but about protecting the music and film industries illegal, anti-competitive price fixing practices (by way of preventing any other production/distribution of that type of media). Illegal price fixing is a small price that all Governments will gladly pay, as music and film support the propaganda/mythology creation industry of Government. The simplest solution to prevent piracy would be to open the music and film markets to competition, but that is exactly what the RIAA and MPAA are trying to prevent.
beernutz 15y ago
Am I the only one that was upset at her seeming to dismiss you as a "hoodie wearing geek" at the end there?
- kn0thing 15y ago
  I've been on a number of times (occasionally in a hoodie, which their producers really seemed to like and I'm certainly comfortable in) and decided I should dress a little better after my grandfather told me I "looked like a bum." He watched BloombergTV 24-7, so I figured he's a good representation of the demo. She's just teasing - she's the one who invited me on as their tech contributor in the first place: http://search1.bloomberg.com/search/?content_type=all&page=1&q=alexis%20ohanian http://search1.bloomberg.com/search/?content_type=all&pa... I don't believe anyone should be judged on their attire, but if it'll get some people to listen, so it goes.
  - RockyMcNuts 15y ago
    would go whole hog and get someone from the SOPA PR swat team to help you pick an interview suit/blazer - looked OK, but would get a solid red tie, and something about the shirt collar and suit looked a little out of whack. Only superficial people don't judge by appearances LOL (Wilde) agree with what other people said about tightening up talking points - wouldn't hesitate to give specific examples about your own companies and the services people use that would be turned off if someone does something stupid, reviews, social networking sites etc., as other people said, would try to focus your attention on the interviewer and the camera like they're two friends you're engaging, avoid looking around into space. good camera presence, good job!
MichaelApproved 15y ago
I agree, make it simple and something the layman could understand. I'd adjust the analogy to "If someone shoplifts a DVD from Best Buy, this bill allows the government to shut down the store."
- SilasX 15y ago
  Is that really true (in the sense of being analogous to what the bill does)? I thought it was more like, "If someone carries a shoplifted CD into Best Buy and leaves it on a shelf, it allows the government to shut down all Best Buys".
  - MichaelApproved 15y ago
    Good point. Maybe this would be more fitting: "If a store in a mall sells counterfeit goods, the entire mall gets shutdown"
ShabbyDoo 15y ago
The problem I have with the shoplifting analogy as presented is that someone unfamiliar with SOPA might conclude that the website at risk must also be the victim of the crime. How about analogies to other crimes like stealing from another customer, assaulting another customer, etc. What's ironic is that the bar/nightclub industry is effectively governed by such a law. It seems that, when patrons decide to do bad things in a bar, the government can revoke the establishment's liquor license. Even the number of police visits to an establishment due to customers' bad behavior has been used against the establishment. While I might have sympathy for the government if the bartenders were encouraging drunkenness, few other establishments must worry about their own culpability when a customer does something bad on premises.
- insickness 15y ago
  Other analogies: A car is used as a getaway vehicle in a robbery so the government goes after the car manufacturer. A safety deposit box contains an illegal item, so the bank gets shut down.
- stock_toaster 15y ago
  Two people are overheard talking in a grocery store about how you can make your own orange juice at home from oranges. Tropicana shuts the store down.
trunnell 15y ago
My favorite analogy on the DNS and monitoring problems: Since shoplifters use roads to make their getaway, SOPA would have us set up roadblocks to catch all the thieves. Could we catch more thieves by setting up roadblocks? Of course! So why don't we? For the same reasons SOPA would be bad law: we don't stop and search people in roadblocks (4th amendment prevents unreasonalbe search and seizure). Also, as a practical matter, roads, like DNS, are shared resources and the collateral damage to transportation (and internet routing) would be massive.
- JoshTriplett 15y ago
  Doesn't work very well, because police do in fact set up roadblocks for any number of reasons, such as drunk driving "checkpoints", and for that matter borders. Anyone using that analogy would just trigger a response of "but SOPA only targets foreign companies, and we do set up roadblocks on our borders". Using an analogy to aid understanding can seriously backfire when your opponents make fallacious arguments from analogy, because the audience doesn't actually understand the issue so they go with whatever the analogies makes believable.
dgeb 15y ago
We really need to do a better job arguing this case. This is about justice vs. injustice, not jobs in tech vs. jobs in movies/tv. Here's the analogy I tweeted a couple weeks ago: "SOPA is the equivalent of allowing Disney to shut down a restaurant because a customer drew Mickey Mouse on a napkin." I think anyone can recognize the injustice in that.
- kn0thing 15y ago
  I've been offline for the last few hours, just came back to start picking through the notes. I like this Mickey Mouse analogy most of all the ones I've seen so far. Concise and relatable (and accurate).
  - davej 15y ago
    I agree that the Mickey Mouse analogy is probably more accurate than the shop-lifting analogy but I can't help thinking that it sounds a bit frivolous and contrived on first listen (if you analyze it then it makes perfect sense, but soundbytes shouldn't need analysis). The shoplifting analogy seems more immediate and straight-forward to me. I understand that the shoplifting analogy equates piracy with theft but the distinction isn't really all that relevant to SOPA. Uncle Art probably equates piracy with theft anyway, so why fight the battle on two fronts? One final point on this, by indirectly conceding the piracy/theft point you're less likely to step out of alignment with Uncle Art thus making it easier for him to agree with everything else you say. :) P.S. I know we're all probably focusing too much on that killer soundbyte but I do think it was the missing ingredient. :)
    - dgeb 15y ago
      I guess my analogy is a bit contrived, but definitely less than this legislation ;) If we abstract analogies too far, I worry that people will ignore them. I tried to leave Uncle Art with very few dots to connect by only changing the "host" business in my analogy.
- luv2lrn 15y ago
  How about this slight modification: "SOPA is the equivalent of allowing the US Government to shut down a restaurant because Disney thinks a customer may have drawn Mickey Mouse on a napkin."
mattlong 15y ago
I agree that getting our aunts, uncles, etc to "get it" is very important. But I wonder if most of them even know this is an issue. Time for an anecdote: While visiting my parents for Christmas, I scoffed when we drove past a car with a Lamar Smith bumper sticker (they live in TX). My parents asked me why I didn't like him; he was a stand-up representative as far as they knew. I mentioned SOPA and how horrible it is and they both drew a blank...turns out they had never even heard of SOPA. I was shocked since they watch the local and national news almost daily and discuss any story they see regarding technology/the internet with me.
TheEskimo 15y ago
It's a little more in depth than the shop lifting analogy. I like to use the following: "A person tells the government that they saw a TV in the local pawn shop which is really theirs. They never asked the pawn shop owner for it back and they have no reason to suspect the pawn shop owner knows it is stolen. The government will then shut down the pawn shop without even talking to the owner first or having significant proof that the item was really stolen. Every phone book will be required to remove the pawn shop's phone number from it and maps will not be allowed to show the pawn shop. The pawn shop can then attempt to get their store back from the government but if it turns out that the item really was stolen then the government will not return it." In the analogy the pawn shop is a website, the owner of the item is the copyright holder, the item is copyrighted content, and the removal of the phone number and map info is dns-delisting and search-engine de-indexing. I think the above analogy holds up fairly well and clearly demonstrates the ridiculous measures SOPA goes to. It's also much more easily understandable by non-tech-savvy people. Please tell me if it is not accurate in some way or is unclear.
- kn0thing 15y ago
  Thanks for writing this. While it's more thoughtful, it's also much more verbose -- deadly in our soundbyte-driven media.
  - dolbz 15y ago
    also while all analogies have problems the verbosity here introduces more complications. Technically the store isn't shut down it's only removed from the phonebook. At this point the analogy breaks down as that doesn't sound as drastic at all. However, on the web, being removed from DNS would be a death sentence to legitimate sites but ironically (and tragically) not for sites dedicated to copyright infringement.
- ianstormtaylor 15y ago
  It is definitely more accurate than the shoplifting story. However, pawn shops don't have the best reputations to begin with, so you'd be comparing yourself to something that people already find sleazy/sketchy/dirty/etc. Edit: If you want to add some sympathy, replace pawn shop with Salvation Army and TV with pair of jeans.
kn0thing 15y ago
Thanks. I love this feedback and agree that connecting with normals is vital; it's something that comes up again & again with my girlfriend as I "pitch" her on how to discuss these bills. The struggle I have with metaphors like yours is that it doesn't accurately describe piracy (because it's not the same as theft). This feels a bit disingenuous, but definitely makes for a great soundbyte. It's a catch-22: the thoughtful, reasonable explanation of why it's a terrible idea will never get through to anyone except the people who already know.
- noahc 15y ago
  Have you tried Graffiti analogy? Imagine you are a shop owner and someone writes something offensive on the outside of your building without you even knowing about it. This bill would allow the government to shutdown your store before you even knew the writing existed. Today we already have in place a mechanism to notify the store owner, but SOPA changes that. It makes it possible to shut down entrepenuers, the store owners and wealth creators on the internet, before they even have a chance to get started helping to revitalize the American economy.
  - kn0thing 15y ago
    (Devil's advocate) "But how would you not notice someone graffitied your wall?" I dig this analogy: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3426990 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3426990
    - noahc 15y ago
      I think that one is better too. I was picturing an outside wall with the shop owner inside all day behind the counter. The Mickey Mouse one is more concise though.
  - lukeschlather 15y ago
    A better base for the analogy might be a mall, since there are a variety of situations where SOPA could result in a slew of virtual storefronts being taken down due to the actions of a customer in a single store that wasn't doing proper policing of its customers (never mind whether the stores should be responsible for policing their customers, attacking this at the domain level is like shutting down a mall because of the nonviolent actions of a few customers, and blaming it on the mall.)
stcredzero 15y ago
There is another comment in this thread by squeee which is the first one I read that my Uncle Art would understand, something like, "If someone shoplifts in your store, this bill allows the government to shut down your store." Actually, it's more like, if the government gets a tip that someone shoplifted in your store, the government can instantly shut your store down for a long period of time while it gets investigated.

by edw519 15y ago

sc00ter 15y ago

> "If someone shoplifts in your store, this bill allows the government to shut down your store." I like the analogy, but it's off by a mark. "If someone leaves stolen goods in your store, this bill allows the government to shut down your store." would be a closer match, but misses a nuance. "If someone post a notice advertising stolen goods on the community noticeboard in your store, this bill allows the government to shut down your store." would be even closer, but is a little harder to grok.

joshklein 15y ago
The best I could come up with is: "It's like if you were a landlord renting one apartment in a large building to someone you thought was a guitar teacher giving private lessons, but he turned out to be selling stolen jewelry; your whole apartment complex could be shut down by the government before the trial of your tenant took place, even if you evicted the tenant as soon as you discovered criminality."
peterb 15y ago
"If anyone posted a classified ad for stolen goods in your local newspaper, this bill allows the government to shut down the newspaper."
- coverband 15y ago
  I think this is the best fitting analogy so far... You can extend it to further talk about content owners, publishers, user-generated content, paid subscribers and free readers, etc. Newspapers also deal with existing regulations that address the same type of issues, such as first amendment rights vs. libel laws and the public's right to know vs. need for privacy.
- thegb05 15y ago
  Here's one I just thought of. Maybe not entirely serious: Prostitution is illegal in most states. SOPA is nearly equivalent to shutting down a bar because somebody went into the bathroom and scrawled "For a good time, call XXX-XXXX" on the wall.

dpapathanasiou 15y ago

Why is the internet so afraid of ethical behavior? This is the problem with how these bills are named. SOPA stands for "Stop Piracy Online Act". I.e., how can you be against something that stops theft? It would have a completely different mainstream reaction if it were called the "Censor the Internet Act" or "Stop Free Speech Online Act".

Timothee 15y ago

To be fair to Alexis, this was for BloombergTV so I think his emphasis on the creation of wealth (or lack thereof) and the economic impact of SOPA was appropriate. It's true indeed that this wouldn't be helpful for your Uncle Art.

kn0thing 15y ago
I was trying to hit my audience of bankers, daytraders, and wealthy people, but I'm very mindful of these Uncle Arts, because in the end they're the ones who will win the day: http://navantigroup.com/content/world-changing-power-reasonable http://navantigroup.com/content/world-changing-power-reasona...
- geogra4 15y ago
  I think you did a very good job shoehorning the key phrases 'wealth creation', 'big government' and 'private sector' into your appearance so that you could get the bloomberg audience on your side. Nicely done.
  - kn0thing 15y ago
    Thanks. Not my usual crowd, but we've certainly got common ground here.

dominostars 15y ago

Agreed. The shoplifting analogy isn't even necessary, just an accurate depiction of what is so scary: "If just one user uploads copyright material to youtube, SOPA allows the government to shut down all of youtube. Even if youtube removes the material as quickly as possible."

klinquist 15y ago
This is similar to how I described it to my relatives as well. They know enough about Facebook to understand - I told them that if I took a picture of a painting in a gallery and posted it on my facebook wall, the government could take down all of facebook.

jlank 15y ago

Another analogy: "If someone gets pulled over for speeding in their Ford Mustang, Ford is liable for their illegal behavior"

klinquist 15y ago
"The government could immediately shut down all Mustangs on the road"
- pkghost 15y ago
  Terrorists meet in your backyard, government takes your house.
- jarin 15y ago
  "Chevy sends an email to the government and all Mustangs are immediately shut down."

DevX101 15y ago

Despite my differences with much of the Republican party platform, one thing that they are damn good at and I respect them for is an ability to communicate with their target base. Where's there's a hot topic issue, the Republicans will come out in lockstep with voices on the same wavelength. They use clear and simple language with a single antagonist. In the really big battles they even coin phrases like 'Obamacare', 'Death tax', & 'energy exploration', that succinctly convey their point of view. Each of those phrases will be used repeatedly by every Republican on TV, until their opponents (Democrats) even adopt the same language they've invented. This why I like that 'shoplifter in the store' analogy. Its pretty simple and relatable to just about anyone. On the topic of language though, the opponents of SOPA should be creating their own word/phrase. If we refer to SOPA as 'online piracy', then we've already conceded more ground that we need to.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
TobiasCassell 15y ago
"Despite my differences with much of the Republican party platform, one thing that they are damn good at and I respect them for is an ability to communicate with their target base." Yes- they are so good at this, its a great lesson in conveying with power.. George Lakoff beautifully explains how they do this in his book- "Don't Think of an Elephant!: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate".. You also mention they get the other political parties to use "their" terminology as well, George Lakoff goes through this in the book as well. I found a ton of communication lessons in the book, and I dont think the tone will alienate anyone, even though its clear the author doesn't lean too far to the right. A great book to read if anyone is at all interested in how the Right owns the game...
asnyder 15y ago
It doesn't hurt that they have a 24hr propaganda network dedicated to repeating these catch phrases and sound bites over and over again.
- sunir 15y ago

credo 15y ago

Here is what Alexis seemed to be saying in the interview. - SOPA is bad for websites that rely on user-generated-content (and entrepreneurs like him) - We (i.e. tech community) intimidated GoDaddy and forced them to back away from their support for SOPA - One guy made a million dollars by requesting donations on PayPal instead of demanding payments from all users. This is a great example of innovation. The private sector should innovate like this guy (i.e. they should rely on business models that request payments, not require payments) I realize that SOPA has zero support on HN and that my criticism of Alexis' interview-responses won't be popular. However, imo, a better approach to win public support would be to come up with specific solutions for the copyright problem and also acknowledge that copyright holders do have some legitimate concerns.

tptacek 15y ago
SOPA may have zero support on HN (it's not a well-written law) but the MPAA and RIAA have more support than you might assume.
kuahyeow 15y ago
`come up with specific solutions for the copyright problem and also acknowledge that copyright holders do have some legitimate concerns` As Alexis said that's a problem for their industry. It's quite a false flag to say that the tech sites need to come up with a solution. Additionally, DMCA is already one solution.
kn0thing 15y ago
I don't want karma, I want useful criticism. We need to win public support. Granted, BloombergTV is far from mainstream, but we're taking babysteps. We aren't for piracy, we're just aware of how futile trying to legislate against it is. I think we can make a case for this that articulates the genuine problem and still resonates with the average American.
o2sd 15y ago
Noam Chomsky once noted that the problem of the soundbite age is that some questions don't have simple answers that fit inside 30 seconds or 2 minutes. The main problem with SOPA is that it is not possible to solve a market problem with legislation. Copyright infringement is a market problem, and markets are a lot more effective in delivering solutions than Governments. Consequently, SOPA will utterly fail to prevent copyright infringement, resulting in even MORE draconian laws sometime in the future. Specific to the problem of music and film is that these markets are highly regulated oligopolies that use their market power to engage in price fixing. Unlike efficient markets, in which there are a range of different prices, the music and film markets only have two prices: Idiotically expensive and free (illegal). Personally, I would LOVE to pay $1 per episode to watch my favourite HBO series at a time, and in a place of my own choosing. Sadly I cannot. Hence, I either don't watch it at all, or I obtain it by 'other' means. Monopolies/oligopolies only offer one price, and they are free to gouge their customers as long as they can prevent any competition in the market. In other words, SOPA is NOT about preventing piracy (because that is a hopeless cause, much like the war on drugs), but about protecting the music and film industries illegal, anti-competitive price fixing practices (by way of preventing any other production/distribution of that type of media). Illegal price fixing is a small price that all Governments will gladly pay, as music and film support the propaganda/mythology creation industry of Government. The simplest solution to prevent piracy would be to open the music and film markets to competition, but that is exactly what the RIAA and MPAA are trying to prevent.

beernutz 15y ago

Am I the only one that was upset at her seeming to dismiss you as a "hoodie wearing geek" at the end there?

kn0thing 15y ago
I've been on a number of times (occasionally in a hoodie, which their producers really seemed to like and I'm certainly comfortable in) and decided I should dress a little better after my grandfather told me I "looked like a bum." He watched BloombergTV 24-7, so I figured he's a good representation of the demo. She's just teasing - she's the one who invited me on as their tech contributor in the first place: http://search1.bloomberg.com/search/?content_type=all&page=1&q=alexis%20ohanian http://search1.bloomberg.com/search/?content_type=all&pa... I don't believe anyone should be judged on their attire, but if it'll get some people to listen, so it goes.
- RockyMcNuts 15y ago
  would go whole hog and get someone from the SOPA PR swat team to help you pick an interview suit/blazer - looked OK, but would get a solid red tie, and something about the shirt collar and suit looked a little out of whack. Only superficial people don't judge by appearances LOL (Wilde) agree with what other people said about tightening up talking points - wouldn't hesitate to give specific examples about your own companies and the services people use that would be turned off if someone does something stupid, reviews, social networking sites etc., as other people said, would try to focus your attention on the interviewer and the camera like they're two friends you're engaging, avoid looking around into space. good camera presence, good job!

MichaelApproved 15y ago

I agree, make it simple and something the layman could understand. I'd adjust the analogy to "If someone shoplifts a DVD from Best Buy, this bill allows the government to shut down the store."

SilasX 15y ago
Is that really true (in the sense of being analogous to what the bill does)? I thought it was more like, "If someone carries a shoplifted CD into Best Buy and leaves it on a shelf, it allows the government to shut down all Best Buys".
- MichaelApproved 15y ago
  Good point. Maybe this would be more fitting: "If a store in a mall sells counterfeit goods, the entire mall gets shutdown"

ShabbyDoo 15y ago

The problem I have with the shoplifting analogy as presented is that someone unfamiliar with SOPA might conclude that the website at risk must also be the victim of the crime. How about analogies to other crimes like stealing from another customer, assaulting another customer, etc. What's ironic is that the bar/nightclub industry is effectively governed by such a law. It seems that, when patrons decide to do bad things in a bar, the government can revoke the establishment's liquor license. Even the number of police visits to an establishment due to customers' bad behavior has been used against the establishment. While I might have sympathy for the government if the bartenders were encouraging drunkenness, few other establishments must worry about their own culpability when a customer does something bad on premises.

insickness 15y ago
Other analogies: A car is used as a getaway vehicle in a robbery so the government goes after the car manufacturer. A safety deposit box contains an illegal item, so the bank gets shut down.
stock_toaster 15y ago
Two people are overheard talking in a grocery store about how you can make your own orange juice at home from oranges. Tropicana shuts the store down.

trunnell 15y ago

My favorite analogy on the DNS and monitoring problems: Since shoplifters use roads to make their getaway, SOPA would have us set up roadblocks to catch all the thieves. Could we catch more thieves by setting up roadblocks? Of course! So why don't we? For the same reasons SOPA would be bad law: we don't stop and search people in roadblocks (4th amendment prevents unreasonalbe search and seizure). Also, as a practical matter, roads, like DNS, are shared resources and the collateral damage to transportation (and internet routing) would be massive.

JoshTriplett 15y ago
Doesn't work very well, because police do in fact set up roadblocks for any number of reasons, such as drunk driving "checkpoints", and for that matter borders. Anyone using that analogy would just trigger a response of "but SOPA only targets foreign companies, and we do set up roadblocks on our borders". Using an analogy to aid understanding can seriously backfire when your opponents make fallacious arguments from analogy, because the audience doesn't actually understand the issue so they go with whatever the analogies makes believable.

dgeb 15y ago

We really need to do a better job arguing this case. This is about justice vs. injustice, not jobs in tech vs. jobs in movies/tv. Here's the analogy I tweeted a couple weeks ago: "SOPA is the equivalent of allowing Disney to shut down a restaurant because a customer drew Mickey Mouse on a napkin." I think anyone can recognize the injustice in that.

kn0thing 15y ago
I've been offline for the last few hours, just came back to start picking through the notes. I like this Mickey Mouse analogy most of all the ones I've seen so far. Concise and relatable (and accurate).
- davej 15y ago
  I agree that the Mickey Mouse analogy is probably more accurate than the shop-lifting analogy but I can't help thinking that it sounds a bit frivolous and contrived on first listen (if you analyze it then it makes perfect sense, but soundbytes shouldn't need analysis). The shoplifting analogy seems more immediate and straight-forward to me. I understand that the shoplifting analogy equates piracy with theft but the distinction isn't really all that relevant to SOPA. Uncle Art probably equates piracy with theft anyway, so why fight the battle on two fronts? One final point on this, by indirectly conceding the piracy/theft point you're less likely to step out of alignment with Uncle Art thus making it easier for him to agree with everything else you say. :) P.S. I know we're all probably focusing too much on that killer soundbyte but I do think it was the missing ingredient. :)
  - dgeb 15y ago
    I guess my analogy is a bit contrived, but definitely less than this legislation ;) If we abstract analogies too far, I worry that people will ignore them. I tried to leave Uncle Art with very few dots to connect by only changing the "host" business in my analogy.
luv2lrn 15y ago
How about this slight modification: "SOPA is the equivalent of allowing the US Government to shut down a restaurant because Disney thinks a customer may have drawn Mickey Mouse on a napkin."

mattlong 15y ago

I agree that getting our aunts, uncles, etc to "get it" is very important. But I wonder if most of them even know this is an issue. Time for an anecdote: While visiting my parents for Christmas, I scoffed when we drove past a car with a Lamar Smith bumper sticker (they live in TX). My parents asked me why I didn't like him; he was a stand-up representative as far as they knew. I mentioned SOPA and how horrible it is and they both drew a blank...turns out they had never even heard of SOPA. I was shocked since they watch the local and national news almost daily and discuss any story they see regarding technology/the internet with me.

TheEskimo 15y ago

It's a little more in depth than the shop lifting analogy. I like to use the following: "A person tells the government that they saw a TV in the local pawn shop which is really theirs. They never asked the pawn shop owner for it back and they have no reason to suspect the pawn shop owner knows it is stolen. The government will then shut down the pawn shop without even talking to the owner first or having significant proof that the item was really stolen. Every phone book will be required to remove the pawn shop's phone number from it and maps will not be allowed to show the pawn shop. The pawn shop can then attempt to get their store back from the government but if it turns out that the item really was stolen then the government will not return it." In the analogy the pawn shop is a website, the owner of the item is the copyright holder, the item is copyrighted content, and the removal of the phone number and map info is dns-delisting and search-engine de-indexing. I think the above analogy holds up fairly well and clearly demonstrates the ridiculous measures SOPA goes to. It's also much more easily understandable by non-tech-savvy people. Please tell me if it is not accurate in some way or is unclear.

kn0thing 15y ago
Thanks for writing this. While it's more thoughtful, it's also much more verbose -- deadly in our soundbyte-driven media.
- dolbz 15y ago
  also while all analogies have problems the verbosity here introduces more complications. Technically the store isn't shut down it's only removed from the phonebook. At this point the analogy breaks down as that doesn't sound as drastic at all. However, on the web, being removed from DNS would be a death sentence to legitimate sites but ironically (and tragically) not for sites dedicated to copyright infringement.
ianstormtaylor 15y ago
It is definitely more accurate than the shoplifting story. However, pawn shops don't have the best reputations to begin with, so you'd be comparing yourself to something that people already find sleazy/sketchy/dirty/etc. Edit: If you want to add some sympathy, replace pawn shop with Salvation Army and TV with pair of jeans.

kn0thing 15y ago

Thanks. I love this feedback and agree that connecting with normals is vital; it's something that comes up again & again with my girlfriend as I "pitch" her on how to discuss these bills. The struggle I have with metaphors like yours is that it doesn't accurately describe piracy (because it's not the same as theft). This feels a bit disingenuous, but definitely makes for a great soundbyte. It's a catch-22: the thoughtful, reasonable explanation of why it's a terrible idea will never get through to anyone except the people who already know.

noahc 15y ago
Have you tried Graffiti analogy? Imagine you are a shop owner and someone writes something offensive on the outside of your building without you even knowing about it. This bill would allow the government to shutdown your store before you even knew the writing existed. Today we already have in place a mechanism to notify the store owner, but SOPA changes that. It makes it possible to shut down entrepenuers, the store owners and wealth creators on the internet, before they even have a chance to get started helping to revitalize the American economy.
- kn0thing 15y ago
  (Devil's advocate) "But how would you not notice someone graffitied your wall?" I dig this analogy: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3426990 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3426990
  - noahc 15y ago
    I think that one is better too. I was picturing an outside wall with the shop owner inside all day behind the counter. The Mickey Mouse one is more concise though.
- lukeschlather 15y ago
  A better base for the analogy might be a mall, since there are a variety of situations where SOPA could result in a slew of virtual storefronts being taken down due to the actions of a customer in a single store that wasn't doing proper policing of its customers (never mind whether the stores should be responsible for policing their customers, attacking this at the domain level is like shutting down a mall because of the nonviolent actions of a few customers, and blaming it on the mall.)

stcredzero 15y ago

There is another comment in this thread by squeee which is the first one I read that my Uncle Art would understand, something like, "If someone shoplifts in your store, this bill allows the government to shut down your store." Actually, it's more like, if the government gets a tip that someone shoplifted in your store, the government can instantly shut your store down for a long period of time while it gets investigated.