4 ms·

> Using three tons vehicles for long-distance journeys or for the transport of goods isn’t efficient: trains (and last-mile delivery on cargo bikes) are a lot m

> Using three tons vehicles for long-distance journeys or for the transport of goods isn’t efficient: trains (and last-mile delivery on cargo bikes) are a lot more economical That sounds intuitive to me but the fact that train tickets are so expensive on long distances (more than twice than if you travel alone in a car) makes me think it's not the case.

bertil 4y ago
The price difference is because the vast majority of costs for car transport (direct, like road maintenance and indirect, like millions of people dying because of pollution) are handled by the state. Trains can easily be much cheaper as most costs are fixed and they can handle orders of magnitude more traffic without congestion.
qudat 4y ago
> That sounds intuitive to me but the fact that train tickets are so expensive on long distances (more than twice than if you travel alone in a car) makes me think it's not the case. Have you factored in all the costs associated with owning a vehicle (e.g. cost of purchase, maintenance, etc)?
- tyho 4y ago
  Yep, train travel in the UK is more expensive than driving under any circumstances by at least a factor of two or three other than when commuting into London, where parking charges make the economics work.
  - bertil 4y ago
    You don’t include the health cost of pollution and the cost of accidents: healthcare and loss of life make driving far more expensive. That cost is not paid for by the drivers at the moment.
    - tyho 4y ago
      I'll give you the health costs and climate costs but the costs of accidents are paid by drivers through their insurance premiums.
kuschku 4y ago
Train tickets include track maintenace, but if you travel by car, you usually don't include road maintenance, car purchase, etc in the travel price (as they're often hidden and include many subsidies and tax breaks). Additionally, a train always costs the same amount to run, no matter the number of passengers, so in countries where trains don't see much use (like the US), they'll be much more expensive than they should be. If you look at how DB sells the vast majority of their tickets (Sparpreis and Super Sparpreis) in the 9,90 / 14,90 to 49,90 price range (including for 1000km long distance journeys), train travel can be relatively affordable (but obviously still more expensive than car travel if you travel short journeys, fill the car with 7 adults and don't include the road maintenance paid for by regular taxes)
- dagw 4y ago
  vast majority of their tickets (Sparpreis and Super Sparpreis) in the 9,90 / 14,90 to 49,90 If you are flexible and plan ahead. If I decide now to go visit my sister tomorrow (~4 hours by the fastest train route), want to get there not much slower than by car, and travel at a time that is convenient for me, then I'll end up paying a lot more if I go by train, even if I'm traveling alone.
  - kuschku 4y ago
    Yes, that's necessary to provide incentives for people to spread the load over the whole day. Otherwise everyone would pile into the same trains during the middle of the day instead.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      Nobody is saying it’s unreasonable. Just that there remains a valid justification for owning a car. Not driving it everywhere, all the time. But having one.
      - kuschku 4y ago
        I don’t really agree with that. If driving 7+ people is something you do every day, sure. But for the vast majority of people, there is no valid reason whatsoever. I’ve never owned a car, and stopped during the middle of my driving lessons because I didn’t see the purpose in it. That was 10 years ago, and I’ve moved halfway across the country, traveled a lot, never had a car, and overall I spend significantly less on travel than the friends who do own cars (while traveling more comfortably)
Closi 4y ago
> Using three tons vehicles for long-distance journeys or for the transport of goods isn’t efficient: trains (and last-mile delivery on cargo bikes) are a lot more economical You are right - Rail freight is extremely expensive (typically more expensive than road except for very long routes) and cargo bikes have a tiny payload. Think about container ships - massive vehicle and much lower cost vs rail freight (dependent on distance).
- AstralStorm 4y ago
  Surprisingly not that much lower, which is why Transsiberian Railway is still a main transit hub. What matters is large volume per ride, which trains can definitely pull off.

bertil 4y ago

The price difference is because the vast majority of costs for car transport (direct, like road maintenance and indirect, like millions of people dying because of pollution) are handled by the state. Trains can easily be much cheaper as most costs are fixed and they can handle orders of magnitude more traffic without congestion.

qudat 4y ago

> That sounds intuitive to me but the fact that train tickets are so expensive on long distances (more than twice than if you travel alone in a car) makes me think it's not the case. Have you factored in all the costs associated with owning a vehicle (e.g. cost of purchase, maintenance, etc)?

tyho 4y ago
Yep, train travel in the UK is more expensive than driving under any circumstances by at least a factor of two or three other than when commuting into London, where parking charges make the economics work.
- bertil 4y ago
  You don’t include the health cost of pollution and the cost of accidents: healthcare and loss of life make driving far more expensive. That cost is not paid for by the drivers at the moment.
  - tyho 4y ago
    I'll give you the health costs and climate costs but the costs of accidents are paid by drivers through their insurance premiums.

kuschku 4y ago

Train tickets include track maintenace, but if you travel by car, you usually don't include road maintenance, car purchase, etc in the travel price (as they're often hidden and include many subsidies and tax breaks). Additionally, a train always costs the same amount to run, no matter the number of passengers, so in countries where trains don't see much use (like the US), they'll be much more expensive than they should be. If you look at how DB sells the vast majority of their tickets (Sparpreis and Super Sparpreis) in the 9,90 / 14,90 to 49,90 price range (including for 1000km long distance journeys), train travel can be relatively affordable (but obviously still more expensive than car travel if you travel short journeys, fill the car with 7 adults and don't include the road maintenance paid for by regular taxes)

dagw 4y ago
vast majority of their tickets (Sparpreis and Super Sparpreis) in the 9,90 / 14,90 to 49,90 If you are flexible and plan ahead. If I decide now to go visit my sister tomorrow (~4 hours by the fastest train route), want to get there not much slower than by car, and travel at a time that is convenient for me, then I'll end up paying a lot more if I go by train, even if I'm traveling alone.
- kuschku 4y ago
  Yes, that's necessary to provide incentives for people to spread the load over the whole day. Otherwise everyone would pile into the same trains during the middle of the day instead.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    Nobody is saying it’s unreasonable. Just that there remains a valid justification for owning a car. Not driving it everywhere, all the time. But having one.
    - kuschku 4y ago
      I don’t really agree with that. If driving 7+ people is something you do every day, sure. But for the vast majority of people, there is no valid reason whatsoever. I’ve never owned a car, and stopped during the middle of my driving lessons because I didn’t see the purpose in it. That was 10 years ago, and I’ve moved halfway across the country, traveled a lot, never had a car, and overall I spend significantly less on travel than the friends who do own cars (while traveling more comfortably)

Closi 4y ago

> Using three tons vehicles for long-distance journeys or for the transport of goods isn’t efficient: trains (and last-mile delivery on cargo bikes) are a lot more economical You are right - Rail freight is extremely expensive (typically more expensive than road except for very long routes) and cargo bikes have a tiny payload. Think about container ships - massive vehicle and much lower cost vs rail freight (dependent on distance).

AstralStorm 4y ago
Surprisingly not that much lower, which is why Transsiberian Railway is still a main transit hub. What matters is large volume per ride, which trains can definitely pull off.